JSJ 277: Dojo 2 with Dylan Schiemann and Kitson Kelly

JSJ 277: Dojo 2 with Dylan Schiemann and Kitson Kelly

JSJ 277: Dojo 2 with Dylan Schiemann and Kitson KellyThis episode of JavaScript Jabber features panelists Aimee Knight, Cory House, and Charles Max Wood. They talk with Dylan Schiemann and Kitson Kelly about Dojo 2.[00:02:03] Introduction to Dylan SchiemannDylan is the CEO at Sitepen and co-founder of the Dojo Toolkit.[00:02:22] Introduction to Kitson Kitson is the CTO at Sitepen and project lead for Dojo 2.[00:02:43] Elevator Pitch for DojoDojo 1 has been around forever. Started back in 2004 as a way to solve the challenge of "I want to build something cool in a browser." Promises and web components were inspired by or created by Dojo. It's been a huge influence on the web development community.Dojo 2 is a ground up re-write with ES 2015, TypeScript and modern API's. It's a modernized framework for Enterprise applications.[00:04:29] How is Dojo different from other frameworks?There's a spectrum: small libraries like React with an ecosystem and community of things you add to it to Angular which is closer to the MV* framework with bi-directional data binding. Vue lands somewhere in the middle. Dojo 2 is also somewhere in the middle as well. It's written in TypeScript and has embraced the TypeScript experience.[00:06:00] Did the Angular 2 move influence the Dojo 2 development and vice-versa?Dojo 2 had moved to TypeScript and 2 days later Angular announced that they were going to TypeScript. Angular also moved very quickly through their BETA phase, which caused some challenges for the Angular community.With Dojo 2, they didn't start the public discussion and BETA until they knew much better what was and wasn't going to change. They've also been talking about Dojo 2 for 6 or 7 years.The update was held up by adoption of ES6 and other technologies.Dojo 1 was also responsible for a lot of the low-level underpinning that Angular didn't have to innovate on. Dojo 2 was built around a mature understanding of how web applications are built now.People doing Enterprise need a little more help and assistance from their framework. Dojo provides a much more feature rich set of capabilities.Angular could have pushed much more of TypeScript's power through to the developer experience. Dojo much more fully adopts it.It's also easier if all of your packages have the same version number.Call out to Angular 4 vs Angular 2.[00:12:44] AMD ModulesWhy use AMD instead of ES6 modules?You can use both. Dojo 2 was involved in the creation of UMD. James Burke created UMD while working on Dojo.ES6 modules and module loading systems weren't entirely baked when Dojo 2 started to reach maturity, so they went with UMD. It's only been a few months since Safari implemented the ES6 module system. Firefox and friends are still playing catchup.The Dojo CLI build tool uses webpack, so it's mostly invisible at this point.So, at this point, should I be using UMD modules? or ES6? Is there an advantage to using AMD?With TypeScript you'd use ES6 modules, but UMD modules can be loaded on the fly.[00:16:00] Are you using Grunt?Internally, for tasks we use Grunt. But for users, we have a CLI tool that wraps around Webpack.For package builds and CI, Grunt is used.[00:18:30] What is the focus on Enterprise all about?There are a lot of different challenges and complexities to building Enterprise apps. Dojo was the first framework with internationalization, large data grids, SVG charts, etc. Dojo has spend a long time getting this right. Many other systems don't handle all the edge cases.Internationalization in Angular 2 or 4 seems unfinished.Most Dojo users are building for enterprises like banks and using the features that handle large amounts of data and handle those use cases better.[00:21:05] If most application frameworks have the features you listed, is there a set of problems it excels at?The Dojo team had a hard look at whether there was a need for their framework since many frameworks allow you to build great applications. Do we want to invest into something like this?React has internationalization libraries. But you'll spend a lot of time deciding which library to use and how well it'll integrate with everything else. A tradeoff in decision fatigue.In the Enterprise, development isn't sexy. It's necessary and wants to use boring but reliable technology. They like to throw bodies at a problem and that requires reliable frameworks with easily understood decision points.Producing code right is a strong case for TypeScript and they pull that through to the end user.Many frameworks start solving a small set of problems, become popular, and then bolt on what they need to solve everything else...Dojo tried to make sure it had the entire package in a clear, easy to use way.You can build great apps with most of the big frameworks out there. Dojo has been doing this for long enough that they know where to optimize for maintainability and performance.[00:29:00] Where is Dojo's sweet spot? https://www.sitepen.com/blog/2017/06/13/if-we-chose-our-javascript-framework-like-we-chose-our-music/The biggest reason for using Dojo over the years is the data grid component.They also claim to have the best TypeScript web development experience.You may also want a component based system with the composition hassles of React.The composability of components where one team may write components that another uses is a big thing in Dojo where one person doesn't know the entire app you're working on.Theming systems is another selling point for Dojo.[00:34:10] Ending the framework warsTry Dojo out and try out the grid component and then export it to your Angular or React app.There are a lot of frameworks out there that do a great job for the people who use them. The focus is on how to build applications better, rather than beating out the competition.Sitepen has build apps with Dojo 2, Angular, React, Dojo + Redux, etc.[00:39:01] The Virtual DOM used by Dojo2 years ago or so they were looking for a Virtual DOM library that was small and written in TypeScript. They settled on http://maquettejs.org/.The more you deal with the DOM directly, the more complex your components and libraries become.Makes things simpler for cases like server side rendering getting fleshed out in BETA 3.It also allows you to move toward something like React Native and WebVR components that aren't coupled to the DOM.They moved away from RxJS because they only wanted observables and shimmed in (or polyfilled) the ES-Next implementation instead of getting the rest of the RxJS that they're not using.[00:46:40] What's coming next?They're finishing Dojo 2. They're polishing the system for build UI components and architecture and structuring the app. They plan to release before the end of the year.They're also wrapping up development on the Data Grid, which only renders what shows on the screen plus a little instead of millions of rows.[00:49:08] TestingThey've gothttp://theintern.io.It pulls together unit testing, functional testing, continuous integration hooks, accessibility testing, etc.It's rewritten in TypeScript to take advantage of modern JavaScript.The Dojo CLI uses intern as the default test framework.Kitson build the https://github.com/dojo/test-extras library to help with Dojo testing with intern.Dojo Links
- http://dojo.io
- http://github.com/dojo/meta
- http://sitepen.com/blog
- https://gitter.im/dojo/dojo2
- http://github.com/dylans
- http://twitter.com/dylans
- http://twitter.com/sitepen
- http://twitter.com/dojo
- http://github.com/kitsonk
- http://twitter.com/kitsonk
PicksCory
- https://www.farnamstreetblog.com/2017/08/amateurs-professionals
Aimee
- https://www.eventbrite.com/e/devfest-florida-2017-tickets-31833188925?discount=JSJABBER (use code 'jsjabber')
Chuck
- Taking some time off
- http://amzn.to/2j8VKRJ
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVsXO9brK7M
Dylan
- https://www.zenhub.com/
- http://halfstackconf.com
- https://www.sitepen.com/blog/2017/06/13/if-we-chose-our-javascript-framework-like-we-chose-our-music/
Kitson
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar%27s_number
Special Guests: Dylan Schiemann and Kitson Kelly.

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Can You Really Trust AI-Generated Code? - JSJ 699

Can You Really Trust AI-Generated Code? - JSJ 699

AI is writing more of our code than ever before—but should we actually trust it? In this episode of JavaScript Jabber, I sat down with Itamar Friedman from Codo (formerly Quoto) to dig into one of the biggest questions developers are wrestling with right now: What happens when AI is generating code, reviewing code, and shaping how we ship software?We explore where AI fits into modern code review, whether developers should be worried about job security, and how human responsibility still plays a critical role—even in an AI-powered workflow. From guardrails and quality standards to the future of agent-driven development, this conversation goes beyond hype and gets into what’s actually working today (and what still needs a human in the loop).AI isn’t replacing developers—it’s changing how we build, review, and take ownership of software. If you enjoyed this conversation, make sure to rate, follow, share, and review JavaScript Jabber. It really helps the show, and it helps more developers join the conversation. Thanks for listening—and we’ll see you next time!Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/javascript-jabber--6102064/support.

24 Joulu 46min

The Real State of Tech Hiring: AI, Ghosting, and the Developer Drought - JSJ 698

The Real State of Tech Hiring: AI, Ghosting, and the Developer Drought - JSJ 698

In this episode of JavaScript Jabber, Steve Edwards and I kick things off by catching up on life — from winter weather and marathon training to health journeys, CrossFit, and some behind-the-scenes personal stories that shaped how we think about wellness and longevity. After warming up, we shift our focus to the state of the tech job market, something both of us have been watching closely and experiencing firsthand.We dive into the challenges developers are facing today — especially juniors — and compare our hiring and job-hunting experiences, the impact of AI on resumes and screening, the slowdown in bootcamps, and why the industry feels different than it did even a few years ago. We also unpack economics, incentives, and business realities affecting hiring, plus what developers should be doing right now to stand out.Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/javascript-jabber--6102064/support.

10 Joulu 1h 4min

Why Astro Is Winning Developers Over with Sagi Carmel - JSJ 697

Why Astro Is Winning Developers Over with Sagi Carmel - JSJ 697

In this episode, I sit down with developer and speaker Sagi Carmel to dive deep into Astro, why it’s gaining so much traction, and how it compares to frameworks like Next.js, Nuxt, Remix, and SvelteKit. We explore what makes Astro uniquely powerful — from its server-first approach and island architecture to its simplicity, speed, and ability to integrate with any front-end framework you want.Sagi also walks me through real-world use cases, including how he built Israel’s official Census website with Astro, why scoped CSS and server components simplify the development experience, and how tools like HTMX and view transitions make web UX buttery smooth. If you’ve been curious about Astro, this conversation is a terrific deep dive into both its fundamentals and its advanced capabilities.🔗 Links & ResourcesAstro Documentation: https://astro.buildHTMX: https://htmx.orgLooker (Google Cloud): https://cloud.google.com/lookerBigQuery: https://cloud.google.com/bigquerySagi Carmel on YouTube: @SagiCarmelSagi Carmel on LinkedIn: Search “Sagi Carmel”Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/javascript-jabber--6102064/support.

23 Marras 1h 3min

The Truth About AI in Everyday JavaScript Development - JSJ 696

The Truth About AI in Everyday JavaScript Development - JSJ 696

It feels great to finally be back on the mic after a stretch of travel, work, and general chaos, and in this episode we’re diving into a topic that’s been coming up more and more in everyday developer conversations: how to actually use AI in your JavaScript development workflow. This isn’t about adding AI features to your app — it’s about using LLMs and AI-powered tools as part of your day-to-day coding practice.We talk through the tools we each rely on, how they’ve changed the way we write code, where they fall short, and where they can save hours of work. We also dig into the real differences between “AI-assisted coding” and “vibe coding,” the unexpected pitfalls of having AI write your tests, and the growing concerns juniors are facing in a job market that looks very different than it did just a few years ago. If you’re trying to figure out how to work with AI without losing your sanity (or your code quality), this one’s worth a listen.Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/javascript-jabber--6102064/support.

14 Marras 1h 15min

Guarding the JavaScript Supply Chain: Preventing NPM Attacks with Feross Aboukhadijeh - JSJ 695

Guarding the JavaScript Supply Chain: Preventing NPM Attacks with Feross Aboukhadijeh - JSJ 695

Hey everyone—it’s Steve Edwards here, and in this episode of JavaScript Jabber, I’m joined by returning guest Feross Aboukhadijeh, founder of Socket.dev, for a deep dive into the dark and fascinating world of open source supply chain security. From phishing campaigns targeting top NPM maintainers to the now-infamous Chalk library compromise, we unpack the latest wave of JavaScript package attacks and what developers can learn from them.Feross explains how some hackers are even using AI tools like Claude and Gemini as part of their payloads—and how defenders like Socket are fighting back with AI-powered analysis of their own. We also dive into GitHub Actions vulnerabilities, the role of two-factor authentication, and the growing need for “phishing-resistant 2FA.” Whether you’re an open source maintainer or just someone who runs npm install a little too often, this episode will open your eyes to how much happens behind the scenes to keep your code safe.🔗 Links & ResourcesSocket.dev – Protect your open source dependenciesFeross Aboukhadijeh on X (Twitter)GitHub Actions Security Best PracticesTruffleHog Blog – On secrets exposure in Git reposBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/javascript-jabber--6102064/support.

1 Marras 1h

Making Monorepos Breakproof with Anton Stoychev - JSJ 694

Making Monorepos Breakproof with Anton Stoychev - JSJ 694

In this solo-hosted episode, I (Steve Edwards) dive deep into the world of modern monorepos with special guest Anton Stoychev from Yotpo. Anton shares his journey from the early days of PHP and IE6 nightmares to his current work in front-end infrastructure, performance optimization, and developer tooling.We talk about the challenges of managing dependencies, upgrading tools without breaking your codebase, and the evolution of developer experience across teams and companies. Anton also introduces Breakproof, Yotpo’s open-source monorepo template designed to make dependency management and tool upgrades painless—even when working with multiple Node.js versions, runtimes like Bun and Deno, and complex CI environments.If you’ve ever struggled with upgrading Jest, ESLint, or TypeScript in a large monorepo, or you’re curious how to isolate dependencies to keep your codebase maintainable over time, this episode is a must-listen.🔗 Links & Resources🔧 Breakproof on GitHub: breakproof.dev🧠 Yotpo LTD on GitHub: Yotpo Breakproof Base Monorepo💬 Follow Anton Stoychev: stoychev.dev on BlueSkyBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/javascript-jabber--6102064/support.

24 Loka 1h 13min

Spec-Driven Development and the Future of AI IDEs with AWS’s Kiro - JSJ 693

Spec-Driven Development and the Future of AI IDEs with AWS’s Kiro - JSJ 693

In this episode of JavaScript Jabber, I sit down with AWS’s Clare Liguori and Erik Hanchett to talk about Kiro, a brand-new AI-powered IDE that’s reimagining the way developers build software. We dive into how Kiro takes “AI-assisted coding” to a new level through spec-driven development — a process that focuses on defining requirements and collaborating with AI to break projects into clear, manageable tasks.We unpack what sets Kiro apart from tools like Cursor and Copilot, explore its supervised vs. autopilot coding modes, and even talk about how it handles UI design, planning, and complex legacy codebases. Clare and Erik share behind-the-scenes insights on how Kiro was built using Kiro itself, what’s coming next for the platform, and how developers can join the early-access community to help shape its future.🔗 Links & Resources:🌐 Kiro Official Site🧠 AWS Developer Advocate TeamBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/javascript-jabber--6102064/support.

9 Loka 43min

Modern JavaScript Testing: Integration, Contract Testing & AI Tools - JSJ 692

Modern JavaScript Testing: Integration, Contract Testing & AI Tools - JSJ 692

In this episode of JavaScript Jabber, I sit down with Dan Shapir and our special guest, Yoni Goldberg, to dive deep into the ever-evolving world of JavaScript testing. Yoni, a consultant who’s worked with over 40 organizations to refine developer workflows, shares valuable lessons learned from helping teams design efficient and reliable tests.We explore emerging trends in testing, including the rise of browser-based test runners, the shift from unit testing toward more integration and component testing, and how modern frameworks like Playwright, Vite Test Browser Mode, and Storybook are changing the way developers think about confidence in their code. We also tackle the role of AI in writing and maintaining tests, the pros and cons of mocking vs. real backends, and why contract testing is becoming essential in 2025.If you’ve ever struggled with flaky end-to-end tests, wondered how to balance speed with confidence, or wanted a clear breakdown of modern testing tools, this conversation will give you practical insights and fresh perspectives to take back to your projects.Links & ResourcesYoni Goldberg’s GitHubGoldbergYoni.comBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/javascript-jabber--6102064/support.

29 Syys 1h 6min

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