Grit6 Tammi 2025

#224 CTO & Co-Owner 37signals, David Heinemeier Hansson: Perfect Flow

Guest: David Heinemeier Hansson, CTO & co-owner of 37signals and creator of Ruby on Rails

37signals CTO David Heinemeier Hansson has organized his life around his passions: Writing, racing sports cars, and coding. “ Why aren't we all doing that?” he wonders. “Why aren't we all trying to optimize our life in such a way that much of it is enjoyable?”

Part of the problem, David argues, is that it’s impossible to find a creative or productive flow inside of mainstream work culture. Open offices, managerial over-hiring, and sloppy scheduling prevents people from reaching a flow state.

“40 hours a week is plenty than most people,” he says. “... So many people today are focused on just adding more and more hours. They're not thinking about how those hours are spent.”

Chapters:

(01:19) - 24 Hours of Le Mans
(06:48) - Amateurs in sports car racing
(10:54) - Flow and meditation
(15:25) - Mundane bulls**t
(18:14) - Optimizing for flow
(21:09) - Calendars and open offices
(24:30) - Full-time managers
(29:06) - Small companies
(32:20) - Selfishness and work
(40:21) - Taking other people’s money
(45:43) - Temptation
(49:49) - Moderately rich
(55:19) - “The day I became a millionaire”
(58:56) - The hassle
(01:03:58) - Achieving the dream
(01:08:34) - Shopify and Tobias Lütke
(01:14:50) - Trade-offs and downsides
(01:18:43) - The impact of Ruby on Rails
(01:22:02) - “I love being wrong”
(01:25:37) - DEI and illegal drugs
(01:29:49) - Not hiring
(01:30:35) - What “grit” means to David

Mentioned in this episode: TikTok, Minecraft, Mario Kart, Formula One, NASCAR, Lewis Hamilton, the NBA, Tesla Model S, Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, Steve McQueen, Jason Fried, Tetris, Bullshit Jobs: A Theory by David Graeber, Elon Musk and Twitter, the Dunbar number, Zappos, Google, Adam Smith, Stripe, Meta, Jeff Bezos, Basecamp, Zapier, 1Password, GitHub, SpaceX, private jets, Aesop, the Pagani Zonda, the Porsche Boxster, Lamborghini, Coco Chanel, LeBron James, Hey, Steve Jobs, Michael Arrington and TechCrunch, Y Combinator, Dr. Thomas Sowell,Punished by Rewards by Alfie Kohn, Grit by Angela Duckworth, and LEGO.

Links:

Connect with David

Connect with Joubin

Learn more about Kleiner Perkins

This episode was edited by Eric Johnson from LightningPod.fm

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