Interview with Worobey, Andersen & Holmes: The Lab Leak
Decoding the Gurus11 Maalis 2023

Interview with Worobey, Andersen & Holmes: The Lab Leak

The question of the SARS-CoV-2 origin: whether it was a zoonotic spillover from a wet market, or an engineered virus that escaped from the Wuhan Institute of Virology, is seemingly a debate that will never go away. Most interestingly, while scientists with specific domain expertise seem to be building a consensus towards the former, public opinion appears to be trending towards the latter. This delta between expert and popular opinion has been helped along by the frothy discourse in mainstream and social media, with most figures that we cover in this podcast dead-set certain that it came from a lab.

Most recently, Sam Harris hosted on his Making Sense podcast the molecular biologist Alina Chan and. science writer Matt Ridley, spokespersons for the lab leak case, and authors of "Viral: The Search for the Origin of COVID-19". To a layperson, and certainly to Sam, they put forward a rather watertight case. Intrinsic to the arguments advanced were the ideas that (a) experts in the area were refusing to engage with and unable to answer their arguments, and (b) a strong implication that there is a conspiracy of silence among virologists not just in China but internationally, to suppress the lab leak hypothesis.

So, as a case study in the public understanding of science, it seems like a pretty pickle indeed. To help unravel the pickle(?) in this somewhat special episode, we are joined by three virologists who are amply qualified to address the topic; both in terms of the evidence and whether they are involved in a conspiracy of silence.

Kristian Andersen is a Professor in the Department of Immunology and Microbiology at Scripps Research. He focuses on the relationship between host and pathogen, using sequencing, fieldwork, experimentation, and computational biology methods. He has spearheaded large international collaborations investigating the emergence, spread and evolution of deadly pathogens, including SARS-CoV-2, Zika virus, Ebola virus, West Nile virus, and Lassa virus.

Prof Michael Worobey, is the head of the department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology at the University of Arizona. His work focuses on the genomes of viruses, using molecular and computational biology, to understand the origins, emergence and control of pandemics. Recently, his interdisciplinary work on SARS-CoV-2 has shed light on how and when the virus originated and ignited the COVID-19 pandemic in China and how SARS-CoV-2 emerged and took hold in North America and Europe.

Prof Edward "Eddie" Holmes, is an NHMRC Leadership Fellow & Professor of Virology at the Faculty of Medicine and Health at Sydney University, a member of the Sydney Institute for Infectious Diseases, a Fellow of the Australian Academy of Science and a Fellow of The Royal Society. He is known for his work on the evolution and emergence of infectious diseases, particularly the mechanisms by which RNA viruses jump species boundaries to emerge in humans and other animals. He has studied the emergence and spread of such pathogens as SARS-CoV-2, influenza virus, dengue virus, HIV, hepatitis C virus, myxoma virus, RHDV and Yersinia pestis.

All three researchers have specialist expertise and decades of experience directly applicable to tracking viruses and their adaption to humans, and, fair to say, are fairly eminent in their fields (Eddie in particular!). Further, they are among the relatively small set of researchers collecting and analysing primary evidence on the origins of SARS-CoV-2, communicating their findings in top-ranked journals, including Nature and Science.

In this episode, Chris and Matt put to this trio of Professors the claims raised by lab leak advocates to see what these (damn conspirators) experts have to say for themselves.

Links

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Supplementary Materials 8: Lab Leak Discourse, Toxic YouTube Dynamics, and the Metaphysics of Peppa Pig

Supplementary Materials 8: Lab Leak Discourse, Toxic YouTube Dynamics, and the Metaphysics of Peppa Pig

We stare into the abyss and welcome darkness into our souls as we discuss:Feedback on the Žižek episodeMiddle Aged Men's Health UpdateAlina Chan and the newest round of Lab Leak DiscourseDiscourse Surfing PunditsAlex O'Connor cornering Jordan Peterson on the resurrectionThe philosophical and Marxist implications of Peppa PigPotential Alternatives to Hipster Christianity and New AtheismAndrew Gold's Heretics Channel and Toxic YouTube DynamicsEditorializing and Responsible CriticismBalaji Srinivasan's Waffling Defence of HubermanThe 'Elite Defector' PoseVerbal Fluency vs. SubstanceHeterodox and Anti-Vaxx Incentive StructuresJames Lindsay's most recent idiocyDesperate Call to ActionLinks Alina Chan's NYT Article on the Lab LeakOur episode addressing Alina and Matt Ridley's points with relevant expertsJordan Peterson's Podcast: Navigating Belief, Skepticism, and the Afterlife | Alex O'Connor @CosmicSkeptic | EP 451Andrew Gold - Heretics: EXPOSED: I Didn't Show THIS in Viral 'Woke' Debate with Eni Aluko (4K)Balaji's huge Twitter thread defending HubermanSummary of Huberman's Math MemeTop Earning Substacks The full episode is available for Patreon subscribers (1 hr 14 mins).Join us at: https://www.patreon.com/DecodingTheGurus

7 Kesä 202442min

Slavoj Žižek: When is a shark not a shark?

Slavoj Žižek: When is a shark not a shark?

Join Matt and Chris as they plunge into the heady mental universe of Slavoj Žižek, the Slovenian philosopher known for his eclectic and provocative ideas. The duo parses Žižek's 'unconventional' takes on ideology, consumerism, and revolutionary theory, peppered with his playful movie criticism of films like Jaws and a Clockwork Orange and even a few that he hasn't even watched.We delve into snuffle-laced discussions of transgressive acts, revolutionary politics, moderate conservative communism, consumerist psychology, and musings on whether Jaws is really about a shark. Throughout all Žižek's dramatic flair is shining through, but is he actually as provocative and hated as he likes to suggest? Matt and Chris have some thoughts...Expect to reconsider everything you thought you knew, listen to some edgy book blurbs, and finally collapse in a puddle with the deconstruction of your ideology.LinksNovara Media: Our World Is Coming To An End | Aaron Bastani Meets Slavoj Žižek | DownstreamThe Pervert's Guide to Ideology (2012) - Slavoj ŽižekJacobin: Žižek’s Left-Wing Case for Christian AtheismPhilosophize This- Episode #196 - The Improbable Slavoj Zizek - Pt. 1 (Also, there are three other Žižek episodes in this series!)Article on the speech Žižek gave at the Frankfurt Book FairJoin us at: https://www.patreon.com/DecodingTheGurus

2 Kesä 20242h 33min

Supplementary Materials 7: Guru Oneupmanship, Hard Ad Pivots, MOOOINK, and Left Wing Populism

Supplementary Materials 7: Guru Oneupmanship, Hard Ad Pivots, MOOOINK, and Left Wing Populism

We curse the dark omens emerging from the Gurusphere as we consider:The Illusion of Disciplinary BoundariesFlint Dibble Feedback and Rays of HopeRussell Brand and Bret Weinstein: Guru One-upmanshipBret Weinstein loves MOINNNNKHard Ad Pivots and Peasants Popping out of WellsKen Klippenstein and Populist RhetoricQuestioning mainstream narratives and their so-called 'experts'QAnon Anonymous missing Left Wing Populism?Alex O'Connor, Jordan Peterson and the costs of indulgent podcastingChris reaching across boundaries to Jonathan PageauOur only comment on the Drake and Kendrick FeudThe beautiful ballet of reaching across the aisleTerence Howard on RoganLinksRusselling with God | Russell Brand on DarkHorseKen Klippenstein- Why I'm Resigning From The InterceptA Farewell To Bad News feat Ken Klippenstein (E278)Navigating Belief, Skepticism, and the Afterlife | Alex O'Connor @CosmicSkeptic | EP 451Terrence Howard is Legitimately InsaneThe full episode is available for Patreon subscribers (1 hr 13 mins).Join us at: https://www.patreon.com/DecodingTheGurus

27 Touko 202437min

Destiny: Right to Reply

Destiny: Right to Reply

Matt and Chris jump into the world of debates, dramas, and online personas with the ever-controversial streamer, Destiny (Steven Bonnell). We discuss our Decoding episode a little bit but mostly broader issues including the value of 'debate porn', edginess & Twitter bomb-throwing, reality TV orbiter drama, and the perils of hero worship and parasocial relationships.As you might anticipate, we also cover various 'hot-button' issues including Destiny's involvement in Israel-Palestine discourse, the ethics of engaging with extremists, and whether Destiny was genuinely arguing for the right to murder the DDoS kid. Finally, we wrap up with some discussion of media literacy, the challenges of navigating online discourse, and strategies for laypeople to better engage with research.LinksOur Decoding episode on DestinyDestiny's Gurometer EpisodeDestiny's Positions as summarised on his WikiDiscussion with a Lawyer about the DDoS kidJoin us at: https://www.patreon.com/DecodingTheGurus

24 Touko 20242h 3min

*Preview* Decoding Academia 27: Dark Triad Authenticity

*Preview* Decoding Academia 27: Dark Triad Authenticity

We do bonus episodes every month that are focused on analysing academic content or discussing research and we thought it might be useful to let new listeners know! So find attached a preview...In this episode of Decoding Academia, Matt and Chris delve into a paper that explores the complex world of dark personality traits and their impact on authenticity. They examine how traits like narcissism and psychopathy might intersect with the concept of the true self, and consider whether cultural differences in self-conception play a significant role. The episode also features reflections on Logan Roy from Succession and a friendly disagreement between Matt and Chris about labels in psychology.Paper referenced: Bulbuc, A. A., & Visu-Petra, L. (2024). Shedding a light on authenticity in high dark trait individuals: A morally grey territory? Personality and Individual Differences, 224, 112632.The full episode is available for Patreon subscribers at the Revolutionary Genius tier (1 hr 9 mins).Join us at: https://www.patreon.com/DecodingTheGurus

16 Touko 202430min

Supplementary Materials 6: Christian Sensemaking, Hipster Race Realists, & Marijuana Pseudoscience

Supplementary Materials 6: Christian Sensemaking, Hipster Race Realists, & Marijuana Pseudoscience

We shake our heads in despair at some truly terrible Guru crossovers:Old Man Health Routines: Jogging, Diets, and the Pursuit of 'Wellness'Jordan Peterson and Russell Brand offer the apotheosis of indulgent Christian-themed sensemakingTaylor Lorenz and activist journalismAre Twitch Streamers the Future of Journalism? No.Huberman gets himself in hot water over Marijuana episodeThe Value of Debating Pseudoscience with HubermanCasey Means: Cramming all the pseudoscience red flags into a single TweetWhen Red Scare met Steve Sailer: Ironic Hipsterism X Old Skool Scientific RacismLinksJBP Podcast: The Collective Unconscious, Christ, and the Covenant | Russell Brand | EP 444Washington Post: Twitch streamers become go-to news source for campus protest coverage (Taylor Lorenz)Red Scare: Sailer Socialism w/ Steve SailerHuberman Lab: Dr. Casey Means: Transform Your Health by Improving Metabolism, Hormone & Blood Sugar RegulationCasey Means Red Flag filled Pinned TweetNew York Magazine: The Man Who Invented Identity Politics for the Far RightThe full episode is available for Patreon subscribers (1 hr 43 mins).Join us at: https://www.patreon.com/DecodingTheGurus

10 Touko 202449min

Interview with Flint Dibble on Pseudo Archaeology and Science Communication

Interview with Flint Dibble on Pseudo Archaeology and Science Communication

In this episode, join Matt and Chris as they enjoy a stimulating discussion with the archaeologist Flint Dibble. Flint recently appeared on The Joe Rogan Experience to discuss the evidence (or lack thereof) of advanced ancient civilizations facing off against the famed pseudoarchaeologist Graham Hancock. The episode was a four-and-a-half-hour tour de force in science communication and effective debunking, thanks to Flint's efforts.We talk to Flint about his experience on the show, the extensive preparation involved, his thoughts on how to effectively engage with pseudo-archaeology and strategies for enhancing broader science communication. Additionally, Flint discusses the significance of authentic archaeological work and the crucial role of academic participation in public discourse.We enjoyed this one a lot and hope you will too!LinksFlint's YouTube ChannelFlint on XJoe Rogan Experience #2136 - Graham Hancock & Flint DibbleFlint's Guardian Article: Lost civilisations make good TV, but archaeology’s real stories hold far more wonderCritical YouTube series on Hancock's Netflix Show Ancient ApocalypseFlint's Conversation Article: With Netflix’s Ancient Apocalypse, Graham Hancock has declared war on archaeologistsFlint's Cardiff University ProfileAtun Shei Review: An Archaeologist Debated Graham Hancock. I Have ThoughtsMedium Article by Chris that talks a bit about Graham Hancock's BookJoin us at: https://www.patreon.com/DecodingTheGurus

2 Touko 20241h 11min

Supplementary Material 5: Spiritual UFOs, Alternative Theories of Evolution, and Atlantean Grievances

Supplementary Material 5: Spiritual UFOs, Alternative Theories of Evolution, and Atlantean Grievances

We watch in awe as the guru-sphere grapples with a host of 'alternative' theories:Bret promotes pseudoscience on Polio and alternative theories on evolutionThe Gurusphere collides with Tucker's takes on evolutionRogan and Tucker praise Alex Jones' prophetic abilitiesTucker's views on spiritual UFOsHasan endorses Lex Fridman as the most genuine centristContrasting Destiny and Hasan's transparencyWorld War 3 WarningsThe Great Archaeology Debate: Dibble vs. HancockGraham Hancock- A Grievance Mongering MasterclassIntentional MisrepresentationWhite Supremacy angers Great JoeThe Cass Review Controversy: A lesson in misinformationLinksThe Untold Story of Polio – Forrest Maready on DarkHorseJerry Coyne's old takedown of Bret's confused theories about evolutionBret's tweets defending TuckerJoe Rogan Experience #2138 - Tucker CarlsonJoe Rogan Experience #2136 - Graham Hancock & Flint DibbleThe Iced Coffee Hour- Confronting Hasan Piker on Socialist Grift, Hypocrisy, and How “The Top 1%” Keeps You Poor!The Iced Coffee Hour- Destiny on Debating Ben Shapiro, Toxic Wokeism and Getting DivorcedA comparison of the reactions to Iran's missile launchesMore or Less (BBC)- 98%: Is misinformation being spread about a review of trans youth medicine?The Cass ReportSystematic Reviews from the Cass ReportThe full episode is available for Patreon subscribers (1 hr 51 mins).Join us at: https://www.patreon.com/DecodingTheGurus

26 Huhti 202444min

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