Interview with Worobey, Andersen & Holmes: The Lab Leak
Decoding the Gurus11 Maalis 2023

Interview with Worobey, Andersen & Holmes: The Lab Leak

The question of the SARS-CoV-2 origin: whether it was a zoonotic spillover from a wet market, or an engineered virus that escaped from the Wuhan Institute of Virology, is seemingly a debate that will never go away. Most interestingly, while scientists with specific domain expertise seem to be building a consensus towards the former, public opinion appears to be trending towards the latter. This delta between expert and popular opinion has been helped along by the frothy discourse in mainstream and social media, with most figures that we cover in this podcast dead-set certain that it came from a lab.

Most recently, Sam Harris hosted on his Making Sense podcast the molecular biologist Alina Chan and. science writer Matt Ridley, spokespersons for the lab leak case, and authors of "Viral: The Search for the Origin of COVID-19". To a layperson, and certainly to Sam, they put forward a rather watertight case. Intrinsic to the arguments advanced were the ideas that (a) experts in the area were refusing to engage with and unable to answer their arguments, and (b) a strong implication that there is a conspiracy of silence among virologists not just in China but internationally, to suppress the lab leak hypothesis.

So, as a case study in the public understanding of science, it seems like a pretty pickle indeed. To help unravel the pickle(?) in this somewhat special episode, we are joined by three virologists who are amply qualified to address the topic; both in terms of the evidence and whether they are involved in a conspiracy of silence.

Kristian Andersen is a Professor in the Department of Immunology and Microbiology at Scripps Research. He focuses on the relationship between host and pathogen, using sequencing, fieldwork, experimentation, and computational biology methods. He has spearheaded large international collaborations investigating the emergence, spread and evolution of deadly pathogens, including SARS-CoV-2, Zika virus, Ebola virus, West Nile virus, and Lassa virus.

Prof Michael Worobey, is the head of the department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology at the University of Arizona. His work focuses on the genomes of viruses, using molecular and computational biology, to understand the origins, emergence and control of pandemics. Recently, his interdisciplinary work on SARS-CoV-2 has shed light on how and when the virus originated and ignited the COVID-19 pandemic in China and how SARS-CoV-2 emerged and took hold in North America and Europe.

Prof Edward "Eddie" Holmes, is an NHMRC Leadership Fellow & Professor of Virology at the Faculty of Medicine and Health at Sydney University, a member of the Sydney Institute for Infectious Diseases, a Fellow of the Australian Academy of Science and a Fellow of The Royal Society. He is known for his work on the evolution and emergence of infectious diseases, particularly the mechanisms by which RNA viruses jump species boundaries to emerge in humans and other animals. He has studied the emergence and spread of such pathogens as SARS-CoV-2, influenza virus, dengue virus, HIV, hepatitis C virus, myxoma virus, RHDV and Yersinia pestis.

All three researchers have specialist expertise and decades of experience directly applicable to tracking viruses and their adaption to humans, and, fair to say, are fairly eminent in their fields (Eddie in particular!). Further, they are among the relatively small set of researchers collecting and analysing primary evidence on the origins of SARS-CoV-2, communicating their findings in top-ranked journals, including Nature and Science.

In this episode, Chris and Matt put to this trio of Professors the claims raised by lab leak advocates to see what these (damn conspirators) experts have to say for themselves.

Links

Jaksot(200)

Supplementary Material 18: The Clown Car Cometh

Supplementary Material 18: The Clown Car Cometh

Still in the land of the free and restocked with important new insights from his US travels, Matt is confronted with the Gurusphere's predictably depressing reaction to the election. And what's that we hear in the distance... is it a honking car?Supplementary Material 1800:00 Matt's American Ethnography10:59 Eric Weinstein is waiting for the call14:32 Huberman, Krauss, and MAGA Sycophancy18:39 Boghossian and other would-be Intellectual Clerics of the MAGA regime22:52 Sam Harris criticises Elon Musk, Joe Rogan, and MAGA32:05 The Fifth Column, The Free Press and World Weary Both Sides-ing53:19 Election Reflections: Macro and Micro Causes01:04:40 Longer Term Trends01:10:08 Sarah Haider and the Hip Vibe of the New Right01:24:00 Richard Dawkins Dual Nature01:31:08 A Plea to Sean Carroll and our Listeners01:33:06 An important note on BoulderingThe full episode is available for Patreon subscribers (1hr 36 mins).Join us at: https://www.patreon.com/DecodingTheGurusLinksEric's phone is not ringingHuberman making his pitchKrauss being a sycophant to ElonBoghossian's lack of interest in protests in HungarySam Harris Making Sense 391: The ReckoningA Special Place in Hell: Adios Amigos: The Special Place FinaleThat graph mentioned about the loss of support for incumbent regimesDawkins being a fool on TwitterThe Fifth Column: #234 - Come On and Zoom! (Wagnerian Opera Edition)

16 Marras 202438min

Sabine Hossenfelder: Science is a Liar ... Sometimes

Sabine Hossenfelder: Science is a Liar ... Sometimes

In this highly non-topical episode, Matt and Chris dive into the entertainingly gruff world of Sabine Hossenfelder, the German theoretical physicist and popular YouTube science communicator. Known as a joyful science curmudgeon, Sabine excels at making complex science accessible to a wide audience. Yet, there's another side to her content: one that's increasingly steeped in the YouTube algorithm’s culture-war-fueled clickbait, complete with prolific both-sidesing and even hints of her own brand of science-denialist rhetoric.We can already imagine Sabine’s response: tone policing from establishment scolds who are trying to silence a fearless truth-teller for exposing academia’s dark underbelly. Perhaps that’s all it is—maybe Matt and Chris are aligned with BIG PHYSICS, out to quash any dissent about supersymmetry, string theory, or the academic publishing machine.Or… maybe it’s something else. Maybe Sabine has pivoted to pander to the (so-hot-right-now) anti-establishment YouTube crowd, declaring that modern science has achieved nothing of value in 50 years and claiming that scientists (especially climate scientists) are too scared to challenge ideological dogmas for fear of jeopardizing their careers or funding.It’s certainly one of those things.Whatever the case, join Matt and Chris as they tackle this perplexing case of rhetorical indeterminacy, unpack YouTube audience dynamics, and delve into Sabine's unexpected alignments with Eric Weinstein and her 'sharp' critiques of Tucker Carlson.LinksSabine Hossenfelder: The crisis in physics is real: Science is failingSabine Hossenfelder: Fossil Fuels Don’t Come From Fossils? Tucker Carlson Fact CheckSabine Hossenfelder: My dream died, and now I'm hereSabine Hossenfelder: Theories of Everything [Music Video]Professor Dave Explains: The Problem With Sabine HossenfelderProfessor Dave Explains: No, Sabine, Science is Not Failing

12 Marras 20241h 50min

Guru US Election Special

Guru US Election Special

Matt and Chris dip their toes into the fetid, guru-infested swamp surrounding the 2024 U.S. election. Straining to see what lurks in the murky depths, they encounter dark shapes, including Eric Weinstein pledging his services to whoever wins (or will give him a call), Joe Rogan conspiracy hypothesizing with Donald Trump, the Free Press hosting a truly heterodox election party, Michael Moynihan pulling no punches, and finally, Jordan Peterson’s shockingly sycophantic psychological assessment of Donald Trump and his cohort.Join Chris and Matt as they navigate the election discourse swamp and the ever-unsettling convergence of internet personalities and political power, examining how these online figures function like the courtiers of old—gathering around their would-be kings, flattering them with pseudo-profound or sycophantic praise, and vying to secure their place in the new order.All very cheerful stuff, we’re sure you’ll agree!LinksA Psychological Analysis of Trump’s Personality by Dr. Jordan B. Peterson | EP 492Professor Dave Explains: The Problem With Sabine HossenfelderMatt Johnson's article on Joe Rogan: A Conspiracist for the Trump EraJoe Rogan Experience #2219 - Donald TrumpMoynihan on Triggernometry: The Most Important Election in History - Michael MoynihanQAnon Anonymous: Episode 211: Tulsi Gabbard P1 (The Cult) feat Mike Prysner

4 Marras 20241h 54min

Supplementary Material 17: American Dreams, YouTube Algorithms, and Poisonous Plastics

Supplementary Material 17: American Dreams, YouTube Algorithms, and Poisonous Plastics

In this episode, Chris and Matt open the lid on Matt's adventures in America. Basking in the land of the free, Matt is forced to consider YouTube dynamics, indulgent podcast conversations, potential Russian influence campaigns, and the environmental toxins that sound him.We will return soon with another SM election special and a better mic for Matt!Content00:00 Introduction03:20 Matt's American Insights10:41 Flint Dibble, Graham Hancock & a silly racist19:21 YouTube & Audience Capture with Andrew Gold27:35 Justin Trudeau accuses Jordan Peterson of being Russian Funded34:29 Bernie Sanders & Lex Fridman: What's the point?47:24 Huberman's Latest PSA52:20 Environmental Toxins and Modern Health Concerns58:58 OutroThe full episode is available for Patreon subscribers (1hr 3 mins).Join us at: https://www.patreon.com/DecodingTheGurusLinksExpress article on Hancock's work being used by racistsNational Post article on Peterson's response to Trudeau's accusationsHuberman's Twitter PSA on microplasticsBernie Sanders Interview | Lex Fridman Podcast #450

1 Marras 202431min

Book Review: The Selfish Gene

Book Review: The Selfish Gene

In this special international episode of Decoding the Gurus, Chris and Matt jump on the hottest online topic and devote an hour to reviewing Richard Dawkins' influential work from the 1970s, The Selfish Gene. This book influenced Matt and Chris when they were teenage decoders, but how does it hold up now that they have evolved into (quasi)adult forms?Based on their rereading of the book they discuss its contribution to the public understanding of evolution, the academic and public controversies it sparked, and Dawkins' broader contributions to science communication and... the culture war. Consideration is given to the criticisms raised by figures like Stephen Jay Gould and Mary Midgley, the implications of seeing humans as meat machines constructed by genes, and what should be understood as the book's core message.So join Chris and Matt as they confront their true nature as gene propagators but also argue that it is possible to simultaneously recognise the importance of human cultural & social development and our genetic & biological legacies. LinksDawkins, R. (2016) The Selfish Gene (40th Anniversary edition)

28 Loka 20241h 16min

Interview with Flint Dibble (Round 2): Battling Pseudo Archaeology & Sharing Science

Interview with Flint Dibble (Round 2): Battling Pseudo Archaeology & Sharing Science

We return to the world of lost civilizations, pseudo-archaeology, and real archaeology with Cardiff University archaeologist Flint Dibble. Sadly the senior member of the Decoding team was absent for the interview but junior decoder Chris struggled on as best he could. This episode, recorded just before the release of Ancient Apocalypse Season 2 on Netflix and Graham Hancock's associated podcast PR tour, examines the appeal of myths like Atlantis, criticisms Flint has faced from Hancock and others, and the broader challenges of communicating good science online.The discussion covers whether debunking false narratives is effective, Flint's experiences post-Rogan with public engagement and social media harassment, and the importance of academics actively participating in public discourse to counter culture-war-fueled stereotypes.Finally, in a crushing blow, Chris also gets Flint to acknowledge that BIG ARCHAEOLOGY can't disprove his stunning new theory about ancient seaweed submarines.LinksOur first interview with Flint from just after his appearance on Rogan.Archaeology with Flint Dibble: The Aftermath of Talking to Graham Hancock on Joe Rogan: A Reply to the HatersArchaeology with Flint Dibble: The Top 6 Penis Bones in ArchaeologyNew Scientist article on Flint: The archaeologist fighting claims about an advanced lost civilisationReal-Archaeology Event!Graham Hancock's Response Video to Flint: Fact-checking science communicator Flint Dibble on Joe Rogan Experience episode 2136Bridges Podcast: Uniting YouTube Against Fake History Frauds | MILO ROSSI & FLINT DIBBLE | Bridges #21The Skeptic: Dr Flint Dibble wins 2024 Skeptical Activism Ockham awardHalmhofer, S. (2024) Manufacturing History: Atlantis, Aryans, and the use of Pseudoarchaeology by the Far-Right. Conspiracy Theories and Extremism in New Times (pp.53-81) Chapter: 3. Lexington Books.

20 Loka 20241h 55min

John Vervaeke and Jordan Peterson: Word Worshipers

John Vervaeke and Jordan Peterson: Word Worshipers

That's right—we’re back in the heady world of sense-making, but don't worry, we're just in time to witness the final resolution of the ever-looming 'Meaning Crisis.'Join Matt and Chris as they embark on an epic journey with the cognitively inclined philosopher John Vervaeke and none other than the uber-guru, Jordan Peterson, himself. Together, they navigate a vast semantic web of meaning that spans discussions of Power, Beauty, Love, Religion, and, of course... the Logos!Along the way, we'll probe the limits of complex wordplay and autodidactic insights, consider the ancient art of delegation, and ponder how the religious-shaped void might just be filled with engagement in Dialogos. On the more mundane level, we'll also explore the inner workings of Jordisan Academy, the logistics of the 'We Who Wrestle with God' tour, upcoming Sensemaking cruises, and the vital multivitamins every Responsible Man should be taking.So come along as Matt and Chris grapple with the Omega Rule, cast aside their reductive materialism, and bow down in horror and awe to worship the words that the eternal Logos issues forth.LinksThe Meaning Crisis: Resolution | Dr. John Vervaeke | EP 482The Stoa: Wisdom Signalling & the Wisdom of Criticism w/ John Veraveke, Chris M, Chris Kavanagh, & Matt BrowneA Bit of Fry and Laurie: A Bit of Fry & Laurie Concerning LanguageJohn Vervaeke: Awakening from the Meaning Crisis

15 Loka 20243h 5min

Supplementary Material 16: Riding a Phoenix to Rescue the Gurusphere

Supplementary Material 16: Riding a Phoenix to Rescue the Gurusphere

We plunge ever deeper into the convoluted world of guru punditry and are dazzled at the theatrics at the 'Rescue the Republic' event, inspired by the profound insights of Eric Weinstein on political speeches, and thrilled at Michael Moynihan's hard knock interview with the moderate heterodox thinker Megyn Kelly. Join us won't you?00:00 Introduction and Health Check Adventures04:15 Exploring the GuruSphere and GuruCon08:57 Matt and Chris Debate Round 1: The Unholy Alliance16:35 Russell Brand and Jordan Peterson's Prayer Time24:51 Bret's Amazing Metaphor: David and the Phoenix36:01 Matt Taibbi's Speaking Truth to Power with the Bible40:24 Rage Against the War Machine43:25 Eric Weinstein's analysis of Kamala Harris58:44 Joe Rogan's Bias and Broken Conspiracy Prone Brain01:13:53 Michael Moynihan softballs Megyn Kelly01:26:11 Cynical Chris and Moderate Megyn: Alex Jones & Tucker are right!01:32:57 Hard Knock Heterodoxy01:47:35 Matt and Chris Debate Round 2: Left and RightThe full episode is available for Patreon subscribers (2 hr 1 min).Join us at: https://www.patreon.com/DecodingTheGurusLinksRescue The Republic WebsiteRage Against the War MachineAll the videos from the Rescue the Republic eventEric Weinstein deciphers Kamala's speech for Chris WilliamsonMegyn Kelly Enjoys Watching Legacy Media Crumble | HONESTLY

8 Loka 202447min

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