“Nazis on the Potomac” – with former National Park Service Chief Historian Bob Sutton
SpyCast8 Marras 2022

“Nazis on the Potomac” – with former National Park Service Chief Historian Bob Sutton

Summary Bob Sutton (LinkedIn; Twitter) joins Andrew (Twitter; LinkedIn) to discuss the mysterious intelligence site P.O. Box 1142. High-value Nazis were interrogated here during WWII. What You’ll Learn Intelligence The interrogation of top Nazis for intelligence The analysis of literally tons of captured German documents Refining ways to escape and evade Nazis in German occupied Europe The importance of intelligence on the German Army’s Order of Battle Reflections The National Park Service & History Politicizing Interpretation And much, much more… Episode Notes This week’s guest is the former Chief Historian of the National Park Service, Bob Sutton, and what a wonderful conversation we had. His book, Nazis on the Potomac: The Top-Secret Intelligence Operation that Helped Win WWII, tells the story of military intelligence facility P.O. Box 1142 – present day Fort Hunt, around 15 miles south of Washington DC.It was here, between 1942-1945, that around three and a half thousand high level German prisoners were interrogated, captured documents analyzed, and ways to help Americans escape and evade Nazis in occupied Europe studied. This story is particularly incredible, because many of the interrogators were German born Jews. This story was almost lost to history, but thankfully because of the NPS and Bob Sutton, it never will be. [Conflict of interest disclosure, Andrew has an “America the Beautiful” Annual Pass]. And… John W. Kluge arrived in the United States from Germany not speaking a word of English in 1922. He was 8 years old. He would go on to be the head of the Military Intelligence Research Section (MIRS) at P.O. Box 1142. After the war, he would go on to become the richest man in the United States. He was so appreciative of America, that he provided funds to Columbia University and The Library Congress to provide opportunities to future students and scholars. Andrew is a former John W. Kluge Fellow at the Library of Congress and therefore a direct recipient of his philanthropy for which he is grateful. Quote of the Week "Doing what we did at Fort Hunt is actually fairly unusual, where we didn't know the story. We were able to locate people, we were able to get money, we could actually interview everybody that we found…That's relatively unusual." – Bob Sutton Resources SURFACE SKIM *Andrew’s Recommendation* Oral History Interview with John W. Kluge, NPS Some fascinating budgets on how his time in intelligence informed his business practices *Featured Resource* Nazis on the Potomac: The Top-Secret Intelligence Operation that Helped Win WWII, B. Sutton (Casemate, 2022) *Beginner Resources* POWs and Intel at Fort Hunt in WWII, NPS (n.d.) [web article] P.O. Box 1142, Top Secret Heroes, YouTube [3 min video] History Series (GS-0170) Federal Jobs, [career article] DEEPER DIVE *SpyCasts* “The Beverley Hills Spy” – with Seth Abramovich (2022) Books Richie Boy Secrets, B. Eddy (Stackpole, 2021) Escape and Evasion, P. Froom (Schiffer, 2015) The History of Camp Tracy, A. Corbin (Zeidon, 2009) Articles P.O. Box 1142, The Mysterious WWII Installation, SOF (2022) MIS-X: Escape and Evasion in WWII, N. Nix, Patch (2011) Moving Image Fort Hunt Up to WWII, R. Sutton, C-SPAN (2022) Richie Boys, 60 Minutes (2022) The New Americans: The Immigrants who Served, U.S. Holocaust Museum (2020) Primary Sources “Red Book”: Order of Battle of the German Army (1945) Oral Sources Oral History Interview with Rudolph Pins (2006) Oral History Interview with Silvio Bedini (2007) Oral History Interview with Paul Fairbrook (2008) Oral History Collections Fort Hunt Oral History Project, P.O. Box 1142 *Wildcard Resource* H. Res. 753 A Resolution on P.O. Box 1142 from the 110th Congress “Whereas” is utilized to great effect to tell the story with great aplomb! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Author Debriefing: "Wild Bill" Donovan

Author Debriefing: "Wild Bill" Donovan

“Wild Bill” Donovan was a World War I hero with a Medal of Honor to prove it, a millionaire Wall Street lawyer, and a prominent Republican. Democratic President Franklin Roosevelt chose this brilliant yet disorganized visionary to be his spymaster, head of the World War II Office of Strategic Services (OSS). Veteran journalist Douglas Waller has written a compelling biography of William Donovan. He describes Donovan’s reckless nature: how he needlessly risked his life on foreign battlefields and engaged in extramarital affairs that emboldened his enemies in Washington. Waller also recounts the OSS’s daring operations overseas and the vicious political battles that Donovan had to fight with Winston Churchill, J. Edgar Hoover, and the Pentagon. Donovan’s plans to continue the OSS after the war were defeated, yet the CIA rose like a phoenix from the OSS’ ashes. This event took place February 17, 2011. Get the book: http://www.spymuseumstore.org/wild-bill-donovan-book.html#.Vxk4yJMrJTY Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

13 Heinä 20111h 6min

Modern Intelligence Analysis: From Art to Science?

Modern Intelligence Analysis: From Art to Science?

A great deal of public attention goes to the CIA’s case officers who recruit and run agents and steal secrets. However, few people pay attention to the fact that those secrets are stolen so that they can be put on desks of intelligence analysts. Analysts, then, must put together information from both secret sources and open sources to produce insightful assessments to inform the nation’s leaders. Randy Pherson, a former senior official at the CIA and the President of Pherson Associates, teaches advanced analytic techniques to the US Intelligence Community. Join him as he discusses with SPY Historian Mark Stout his efforts to move the vital field of intelligence analysis toward greater rigor. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

1 Heinä 201127min

The Aftermath of Bin Laden’s Death: Inside al Qaeda’s Hard Drive

The Aftermath of Bin Laden’s Death: Inside al Qaeda’s Hard Drive

After killing Osama bin Laden, the SEALs reportedly took hundreds of drives, disks, and computers from the house in Abbottabad, Pakistan. What challenges will American intelligence agencies face in exploiting bin Laden’s computers and what can be learned from the computer of a terrorist mastermind? SPY Historian Mark Stout discusses the complexities of digital dumpster diving with Wall Street Journal reporter Alan Cullison, who in 2001 purchased and exploited a computer used by Ayman al-Zawahiri, now the heir apparent to lead al Qaeda. Part two of a series. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

16 Kesä 201130min

The Aftermath of bin Laden’s Death: Winning the War While Staying in the Right

The Aftermath of bin Laden’s Death: Winning the War While Staying in the Right

What are the implications of Osama bin Laden’s death for the al Qaeda movement? What role did waterboarding and “enhanced interrogation techniques” play in tracking down Bin Laden and should we reassess our views of torture? Peter explores these provocative questions with naval intelligence veteran and counterterrorism expert Malcolm Nance, the author of An End to al Qaeda: Destroying bin Laden’s Jihad and Restoring America’s Honor. As a SERE instructor, Nance has been waterboarded and has conducted waterboardings. He has even given expert testimony on the issue before Congress. Part one of a series. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

20 Touko 201133min

Spy versus Spy in East Germany

Spy versus Spy in East Germany

The East German security service, the Stasi, was infamous for surveilling and oppressing the East German population. However, it also hunted Western spies and there were many to be found; the CIA, the West German BND, and Britain’s MI-6 were all very active. In fact, from 1955 to 1989 the Stasi uncovered more than 1300 foreign spies operating in East Germany. Join SPY Historian Mark Stout as he discusses Stasi counterespionage with Professor Paul Maddrell who has been working in the Stasi archives. Learn about Western espionage in East Germany and find out the grim fate of the spies who were uncovered. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

9 Touko 201134min

Stalking Terrorists Online

Stalking Terrorists Online

Montana resident Shannen Rossmiller is proof that things are not as they seem online. Before September 11, she was a judge, a wife, and a mother but not an expert on terrorism or an Arabic speaker. After September 11, she taught herself Arabic and started to explore the world of online jihadism, pretending to be a male terrorist. She soon found that real jihadists were willing to share their secrets with her. She turned these secrets over to the FBI and as a result some of her online acquaintances are now in jail. Listen in as Peter, who used to steal secrets in the real world, compares notes with Shannen who used to steal secrets in the virtual world. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

21 Huhti 201131min

Dropping Spies from the Sky during the Korean War

Dropping Spies from the Sky during the Korean War

During the Korean War, US military intelligence worked with anti-communist Korean agents and partisans to collect information from behind North Korean lines. SPY Historian Mark Stout interviews Colonel Douglas Dillard, USA (Ret.) who led AVIARY operations, the airborne insertion of the agents and partisans, and Mr. James M. H. Lee, a native of North Korea, who worked at his side as an interpreter. Learn what it was like flying at night over North Korea in a blacked out plane and hear about the courage of the Korean volunteers who parachuted into the dark, many of them never to return. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

16 Maalis 201131min

Social Media: Tools of Liberation or Repression?

Social Media: Tools of Liberation or Repression?

Social media—Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, and others—are held up as powerful tools for peoples trying to overthrow police states. Iran’s “Twitter Revolution” electrified the world and the Egyptian government shut off Internet access as demonstrations swept that country. However, Evgeny Morozov of Stanford University, one of the leading thinkers about the political impact of new media, explains to SPY Historian, Mark Stout that they are less powerful than we normally think; worse, “the KGB wants you to join Facebook.”Social media—Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, and others—are held up as powerful tools for peoples trying to overthrow police states. Iran’s “Twitter Revolution” electrified the world and the Egyptian government shut off Internet access as demonstrations swept that country. However, Evgeny Morozov of Stanford University, one of the leading thinkers about the political impact of new media, explains to SPY Historian, Mark Stout that they are less powerful than we normally think; worse, “the KGB wants you to join Facebook.” Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

1 Helmi 201129min

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