"The Lion and the Fox – Civil War Spy vs. Spy" – with Alexander Rose
SpyCast31 Tammi 2023

"The Lion and the Fox – Civil War Spy vs. Spy" – with Alexander Rose

Summary Alexander Rose (Website; Twitter) joins Andrew (Twitter; LinkedIn) to discuss a gripping spy-vs-spy true story from the U.S. Civil War. He wrote the book that was the inspiration behind the hit TV-series TURN. What You’ll Learn Intelligence The secret plot to build a Confederate Navy Why Liverpool was so important to both the North and the South How Civil War espionage played out in Great Britain The high-level spy the South had in the British Foreign Office Reflections The birth of the Atlantic World The malleability of public opinion And much, much more … Episode Notes Liverpool. The city of the Beatles. The home of Liverpool F.C., winner of six European Cups. Did you know that there – thousands of miles away from the bloody battlefields of Fredericksburg, Shiloh, and Gettysburg – the U.S. Civil War played out? In fact, it was a key part of the strategies of both the North and the South since at that time it produced more ships than every other dockyard in the world combined. The North wanted to choke off the South, with the help of spies; but the South wanted to build a navy, with the help of spies. Who would prevail? This is the story of spy-vs-spy, North vs South, and Thomas Dudley vs James Bulloch. And… If this spy story makes you hungry for more, check out Alex’s historical espionage newsletter, Spionage. Quotes of the Week “If Dudley hadn't stopped Bulloch, or if Dudley hadn't existed and Bulloch created this massive fleet of blockade runners and had built more commerce raiders … You would've had a many more sinkings of American merchant vessels. You would've had larger inflows of arms and weapons into the South. The biggest change of all would've been that having the sea lanes open like that would've allowed the South to fight on much longer than it actually did.” Resources SURFACE SKIM Andrew’s Recommendation You must watch Ken Burns landmark documentary The Civil War; but, you must also read more recent commentary and critique – there’s even a whole book related to it. Headline Resource The Lion and the Fox: Two Rival Spies and the Secret Plot to Build a Confederate Navy, A. Rose (Mariner, 2022) *Beginner Resources* Civil War: Evolution of Espionage in America, INTEL.gov (n.d.) [digital exhibition] The History of Liverpool, Historic UK (2018) [webpage] Liverpool and the American Civil War, National Museums Liverpool (n.d.) [short article] British Support During the U.S. Civil War, LDHI (n.d.) [digital exhibit] DEEP DIVE *SpyCasts* George Sharpe and the BMI – Peter Tsouras (2019) Intelligence in the Early Republic – Ken Diagler (2015) The Beginnings of U.S. Overhead Reconnaissance – Jim Green (2014) Intelligence and Espionage in the U.S. Civil War - William Feis (2012) Books The Civil War Abroad, J. Priestley (McFarland, 2022) Cotton, Liverpool and the American Civil War, J. Powell, (LUP, 2020) Lincoln’s Spies, D. Waller (S&S, 2019) Liar, Temptress, Soldier, Spy, K. Abbott (Harper, 2015) The Union and Confederate Navies, J. McPherson (University of North Carolina, 2012) The Civil War at Sea, C. Symonds (Oxford, 2012) Articles Liverpool, site of last surrender in US Civil War, S. Abdelaziz, CNN (2020) CSS Alabama: Lost and Found, Naval History & Heritage Command (2020) Primary Sources The Secret Service of the Confederate States in Europe, J.D. Bulloch (1882) Letter from J.D. Bulloch to General McRae et al (1865) Dudley Introduces Lincoln to a Liverpudlian Union Sympathizer (1863) Dudley’s Concerns About Southern Secession (1860) *Wildcard Resource(s)* You know Liverpool as the city of the Beatles. Did you know that The Beatles’ first single “Love Me Do” and James Bond’s debut movie “Dr. No” were released within a month of each other in 1962? And while none of the Beatles went on to become spies themselves, Ringo married Bond girl Barbara Bach in 1980 and Paul was behind the first rock Bond theme song, “Live and Let Die,” in 1973. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Jaksot(726)

 The Minions: Putin's Expendable Spies

The Minions: Putin's Expendable Spies

They were a spy cell like no other — operating from quiet British suburbs, hailing from Bulgaria, and working on behalf of Russia. Their handler dubbed them “The Minions,” and their plots stretched across Europe and spanned honeytraps, abductions, and murder. At the time of this recording, six have been convicted and await sentencing. To parse out the case, we spoke with Gordon Corera, a British author and co-host of The Rest is Classified podcast. Check out The Rest is Classified here, or wherever you get your podcasts.  If you liked this episode, check out these links: Spy Chat with Chris Costa | Special Guest: Paul Whelan Russian Assassinations in the UK: Inside Three Notorious Cases with Historian Nigel West Curator's Corner: Kevin P. Riehle on Russian Intelligence Prefer to watch your podcasts? Find us on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/@IntlSpyMuseum/podcasts.  Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/  And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at SpyCast@Spymuseum.org.  This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

6 Touko 202530min

Escalation: Tracking the US-Ukraine Relationship

Escalation: Tracking the US-Ukraine Relationship

The United States and Ukraine have had a long, complicated history that has been defined by just as much partnership and collaboration as hesitation and disagreement. This dynamic is laid bare in the 7-part podcast series ‘Escalation,’ produced by our partners at Goat Rodeo, with the national security publication Lawfare. In April 2025, The International Spy Museum hosted a panel discussion on the Washington-Kyiv relationship moderated by SpyCast host Sasha Ingber, and featuring Ukrainian journalist Anastasiia Lapatina, Lawfare’s Managing Editor Tyler McBrien, Retired Brigadier General Kipling Kahler, and former National Security Council spokesperson Emily Horne. To listen to the whole Escalation series, visit: https://www.lawfaremedia.org/podcasts-multimedia/podcast/escalation Prefer to watch your podcasts? Find us on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/@IntlSpyMuseum/podcasts.   Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/  And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at SpyCast@Spymuseum.org.  This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

29 Huhti 202538min

Where the ‘West V. Russia’ Plot Begins

Where the ‘West V. Russia’ Plot Begins

Why does Vladimir Putin often say that the West is conspiring to weaken Russia? Historian James Crossland traces this narrative back to a British intelligence officer and a failed assassination attempt on Vladimir Lenin in 1918. The story is featured in his new book, Rogue Agent, from Secret Plots to Psychological Warfare, the Untold Story of Robert Bruce Lockhart. James takes us into Lockhart’s psyche and lays out how a single moment in the dying days of Czarist Russia helped fuel a century of paranoia and rifts. SPY Artifact Highlight: Trotsky Ice Axe  If you liked this episode, check out these links: Sidney Reilly: Master Spy with Benny Morris Accessory to a Mission - Gadgets and Gear For The Well-Dressed Spy SpyCast | Rise of Devils - The Origin of Modern Terrorism with James Crossland Prefer to watch your podcasts? Find us on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/@IntlSpyMuseum/podcasts.   Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/  And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at SpyCast@Spymuseum.org.  This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

22 Huhti 202531min

DOGE Layoffs and the Counterintelligence Threats They Pose

DOGE Layoffs and the Counterintelligence Threats They Pose

Government employees were dismissed with startling swiftness and sweeping in the midst of the Trump administration's relentless pursuit to pare down the federal workforce. The sheer number of fired personnel and the manner in which US officials let them go have led to concerns that disillusioned former employees may share what they know with foreign intelligence services, jeopardizing the very security they once sought to protect. Bill Evanina, former Director of Counterintelligence, discusses this fear and how foreign adversaries are exploiting the moment. If you liked this episode, check out these links: Dir. of National Intelligence Roundtable: 2025 Society for Intelligence History Panel Spy Chat with Chris Costa | Guest: Alan E. Kohler, Jr. Prefer to watch your podcasts? Find us on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/@IntlSpyMuseum/podcasts.  Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/  And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at SpyCast@Spymuseum.org.  This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

15 Huhti 202531min

Taiwan: China’s Testing Ground for Intelligence Operations

Taiwan: China’s Testing Ground for Intelligence Operations

It's no secret that China has recently stepped up political and military pressure on the democratically governed island of Taiwan. But then, there are the Chinese Communist Party's covert efforts: Recruiting from the inside, gathering intelligence, and exerting influence. Executive Director of the Global Taiwan Institute Russell Hsiao breaks down Beijing Shadow Games in Taiwan. If you liked this episode, check out these links: SpyCast | “Making Sense of China, Taiwan, & America” – Pacific Intelligence with Bonny Lin Understanding Chinese Espionage Through 900 Cases | SpyCast Join Valerie aboard the Spies at Sea cruise August 30 - September 8, 2025! On this 10-day voyage across the Mediterranean, you’ll explore beautiful sights and ancient cities while immersing yourself in the world of espionage with exclusive seminars. Learn more here: https://www.spiesliesnukes.com/spies-at-seas-2025  Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/ And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at SpyCast@Spymuseum.org.  This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

8 Huhti 202529min

Introducing Targeted

Introducing Targeted

Targeted uncovers harrowing stories of people who have been singled out and systematically dismantled—whether for political reasons, personal vendettas, or simply for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Each episode deep dives into the tactics used against someone, the devastating consequences, and the remarkable lessons they’ve learned in their fight to survive. Targeted gives listeners the tools to recognize and resist being targeted themselves. If you’ve ever wondered how systems meant to protect can be weaponized, or what to do if you find yourself in the crosshairs, this podcast is for you. Find episodes of Targeted at targeted.com, YouTube, or wherever you get podcasts. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

2 Huhti 202533min

Understanding Chinese Espionage Through 900 Cases

Understanding Chinese Espionage Through 900 Cases

Nicholas Eftimiades’ 34 year career in government spanned the CIA, State Department and the Defense Intelligence Agency. He's published three books that examine the structure, methodology and operations of China's intelligence services. This, he says, led a Chinese communist newspaper to declare him an enemy of the state in the ‘90s. Now, Nick is retired, and he's been building an unusual database tracking some 900 cases of Chinese espionage. We sat down to dive in.  If you liked this episode, check out these links: How China's spy balloon isn't so unique for espionage technology Curator's Corner | Trafficking Data with Aynne Kokas Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/  And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at SpyCast@Spymuseum.org.  This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

1 Huhti 202529min

Remembering The CIA’s Mind Games

Remembering The CIA’s Mind Games

Sidney Gottlieb was one of the CIA’s star chemists during the Cold War. As head of MKUltra, he ran a brazen—and deadly—program aimed at mind control.  Gottlieb and fellow scientists tried to keep the work secret by destroying files, but historian John Lisle has new details from the six boxes that remained untouched. He shares insights and reflections straight from the mouths of MKUltra’s perpetrators and victims.  John’s new book, Project Mind Control, sheds light on one of the CIA’s darkest moments which still haunts the agency. Available now for pre-order.  If you liked this episode, check out these links: The Dirty Tricks Department with John Lisle THE SOUND: Mystery of Havana Syndrome Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/  And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at SpyCast@Spymuseum.org.  This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

25 Maalis 202531min

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