BONUS Tom Gilb: Building True Engineering Culture and Delivering Value Through Evolutionary Methods

BONUS Tom Gilb: Building True Engineering Culture and Delivering Value Through Evolutionary Methods

BONUS: Tom Gilb on Building True Engineering Culture and Delivering Value Through Evolutionary Methods

In this BONUS episode, we dive deep into the world of true engineering discipline with Tom Gilb, a pioneer who was writing about Agile principles before Agile was even named. We explore his latest book "Success - Super Secrets & Strategies for Efficient Value Delivery in Projects and Programs, and Plans" and uncover the fundamental flaws in how organizations approach project delivery and stakeholder management.

The Genesis of Success-Focused Engineering

"People were failing at project deliveries - even when using Agile. I saw there was very little about setting clear goals and reaching them, it had nothing to do with being successful."

Tom's motivation for writing his latest book stems from a critical observation: despite the widespread adoption of Agile methodologies, project failure rates remain unacceptably high. The core issue isn't methodology but rather the fundamental lack of clarity around what success actually means. Tom emphasizes that true success is about achieving the improvements you want at a price you can afford, yet most organizations fail to define this clearly from the outset.

In this segment, we refer to the book How Big Things Get Done by Bent Flyvbjerg who published statistics on the poor performance of projects in general.

Beyond OKRs: The Power of Quantified Multi-Dimensional Objectives

"First you need to have a definition of what it means to succeed. And that needs to be multi-dimensional. And you need to clarify what they are."

While many organizations believe they're already quantifying objectives through frameworks like OKRs, Tom reveals significant weaknesses in these approaches. True value isn't just profit—it encompasses multiple dimensions including security, usability, and other stakeholder-specific benefits. The key insight is learning to quantify what needs to be achieved across all critical dimensions, as you simply cannot design for high-quality attributes like security without first quantifying and designing for them explicitly.

In this segment, we talk about Tom's paper on OKR's titled "OKR Objectives and Key Results: what's wrong and how to fix it".

The Missing Engineering Discipline

"Why is the failure rate of our projects so high?"

Tom identifies a paradoxical problem: engineering organizations often lack true engineering discipline. This fundamental gap explains why project success rates remain low despite technological advances. Real engineering requires systematic approaches to design, stakeholder analysis, and incremental value delivery—disciplines that are often overlooked in favor of rushed implementations.

Stakeholder Analysis: Beyond User Stories

"Stakeholders have a requirement - even if we don't know it. They might be people, but also law, contract, policies, etc. They all have requirements for us."

Traditional user-centered methods like user stories can lead to failure when critical stakeholders are overlooked. Tom advocates for comprehensive stakeholder analysis as the foundation of engineering discipline. Stakeholders aren't just people—they include laws, contracts, policies, and other constraints that have requirements for your system. The practical tip here is to use AI tools to help identify and list these stakeholders, then quantify their specific requirements using structured approaches like Planguage.

The Gilb Cycle: True Incremental Value Delivery

"Get things done every week, next week, until it's all done. We need to decompose any possible design into enough increments so that each increment delivers some value."

What distinguishes Tom's evolutionary approach from popular Agile frameworks is the focus on choosing the most efficient design and then systematically improving existing systems through measured increments. Each increment must deliver tangible value, and the decomposition process should be aided by AI tools to ensure optimal value delivery. This isn't just about iteration—it's about strategic improvement with measurable outcomes.

Building Engineering Culture: A Two-Leader Approach

"There are two leaders: the tech leaders and the management leaders. For management leaders: demand a value stream of results starting next week. To the tech leaders: learn the engineering process."

Creating a true engineering culture requires coordinated effort from both management and technical leadership. Management leaders should demand immediate value streams with weekly results, while technical leaders must master fundamental engineering processes including stakeholder analysis and requirement quantification. This dual approach ensures both accountability and capability development within the organization.

Further Resources

During this episode we refer to several of Tom's books and papers. You can see this list below

About Tom Gilb

Tom Gilb, born in the US, lived in London, and then moved to Norway in 1958. An independent teacher, consultant, and writer, he has worked in software engineering, corporate top management, and large-scale systems engineering. As the saying goes, Tom was writing about Agile, before Agile was named. In 1976, Tom introduced the term "evolutionary" in his book Software Metrics, advocating for development in small, measurable steps. Today, we talk about Evo, the name that Tom used to describe his approach.

You can link with Tom Gilb on LinkedIn.

Jaksot(200)

Learning to Spot Team Performance Warning Signs Early As A Scrum Master | Somya Mehra

Learning to Spot Team Performance Warning Signs Early As A Scrum Master | Somya Mehra

Somya Mehra: Learning to Spot Team Performance Warning Signs Early Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. At the start of Somya's Scrum Master journey, she joined a well-organized and balanced team. However, after two senior developers left the company, the team faced unexpected challenges. Despite hiring new people, velocity didn't improve. Somya discovered that a remaining senior developer had been stepping back and wasn't contributing actively to the team. Through conversations and giving specific tickets to the senior developer, Somya learned valuable lessons about early intervention and communication. Self-reflection Question: How quickly do you address performance concerns with team members, and what signals do you watch for to identify when someone might be disengaging? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] 🔥In the ruthless world of fintech, success isn't just about innovation—it's about coaching!🔥 Angela thought she was just there to coach a team. But now, she's caught in the middle of a corporate espionage drama that could make or break the future of digital banking. Can she help the team regain their mojo and outwit their rivals, or will the competition crush their ambitions? As alliances shift and the pressure builds, one thing becomes clear: this isn't just about the product—it's about the people. 🚨 Will Angela's coaching be enough? Find out in Shift: From Product to People—the gripping story of high-stakes innovation and corporate intrigue. Buy Now on Amazon [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] About Somya Mehra Somya is a Scrum Master at u-blox with nearly 7 years of IT experience across India and Finland. With experience in Waterfall and Agile models, she leads with empathy and a people-first approach. Somya is deeply interested in human behavior and understanding the motivations behind people's actions. You can link with Somya Mehra on LinkedIn.

11 Elo 14min

BONUS: Why Large Organizations Struggle to Innovate With Elliott Parker

BONUS: Why Large Organizations Struggle to Innovate With Elliott Parker

BONUS: Elliott Parker on Breaking The Illusion of Innovation and Why Large Organizations Struggle to Innovate In this BONUS episode, we dive deep into the paradox of modern corporate innovation with Elliott Parker, CEO of Alloy Partners. Elliott shares his insights on why well-managed organizations often struggle with innovation, the critical difference between execution and learning challenges, and how venture studios can bridge the gap between corporate resources and startup agility. In this episode, we explore Elliott's book The Illusion of Innovation. The Golden Gate Bridge Paradox "It took 7 years to add a safety net to a bridge that took 3 years to build." Elliott opens with a striking example that illustrates the central thesis of his work. Large organizations today are paradoxically less capable of handling opportunities and challenges despite being better managed than ever before. The irony lies in their very efficiency—modern corporations have become so optimized for capital efficiency and short-term profits that they've inadvertently sacrificed their capacity for future innovation. This focus on Return on Invested Capital (ROIC) creates organizations that excel at managing existing assets but struggle with the uncertainty required for breakthrough innovation. The Corporate Innovation Anti-Pattern "The more the innovation team borrows from the business, the more the innovation team starts to look like the original organization." Elliott reflects on a belief he once held and now completely disagrees with—that corporate innovation teams could successfully drive disruptive innovation from within. Having worked in corporate innovation focused on IP licensing and later in venture capital, he discovered that these internal teams, while excellent at expanding existing business models, inevitably become constrained by the very organization they're meant to transform. The solution he advocates is funding startups outside larger organizations, where there's nothing to preserve or perpetuate, allowing for true disruptive thinking. In this segment, we talk about Clayton Christensen's Disruption Theory which he explored in the now famous book: The Innovator's Dilemma. Execution vs. Learning Challenges "Moving slow is a feature of corporations, not a bug." One of Elliott's key frameworks distinguishes between execution challenges and learning challenges. Corporations are brilliantly designed for execution—when the problem and solution are known, they excel. However, learning problems, where the problem is clear but the solution unknown, require a fundamentally different approach. Elliott suggests marrying the best of both worlds: leveraging the funding and market research capabilities of large organizations with the disruptive ideas and solution-seeking agility of startups. He provocatively suggests treating communication around innovation as something to be avoided until solutions are proven, advocating for working in silos until innovation actually works. The Controlled Burn Philosophy "The only way to get data about the future is to collect data by running experiments." Elliott introduces the concept of "controlled burn" using forest fire management as a metaphor for corporate innovation. Just as western US forests have become dangerously dense from aggressive fire suppression, corporations have become fragile by avoiding all risk and experimentation. We can't predict the future, and there's no existing data about what's coming—the only way to generate future insights is through deliberate experimentation. However, managers are typically incentivized to avoid experiments and minimize risk, creating the organizational equivalent of dense forests prone to devastating fires when disruption eventually arrives. Creating Safe-to-Fail Environments "In corporates we focus on frequency of correctness. In startups we focus on magnitude of correctness." After initially believing he could change organizations from within, Elliott learned that creating truly safe-to-fail environments within established companies is nearly impossible. This realization led him to focus on creating startups as the perfect vehicle for business model experimentation. The fundamental difference in mindset is crucial: corporations optimize for being right most of the time, while startups optimize for the size of their wins when they are right, embracing a venture capital-like approach to innovation where occasional big wins compensate for frequent small failures. Shifting from Wealth to Knowledge Generation "Civilizations fail because they don't innovate fast enough." Drawing on insights from David Deutsch's work on learning and innovation, Elliott argues that long-term resilience comes from learning, not just wealth generation. He advocates for shifting corporate conversations from immediate wealth generation to knowledge and learning, positioning companies as explorers of innovation and business models. This requires different funding mechanisms—moving away from operational budgets managed through traditional Excel-based metrics toward "patient capital" that can sustain the uncertainty inherent in true innovation. Traditional management approaches lack the passion needed for breakthrough innovation. In this segment, we refer to David Deutsch's book The Beginning of Infinity: Explanations that Transform The World. About Elliott Parker Elliott Parker is CEO of Alloy Partners, where he helps corporations and universities launch startups through a venture studio model. A former Innosight consultant and entrepreneur, he's passionate about bridging big companies with startup ecosystems to unlock real innovation and long-term growth in an increasingly distributed world. You can link with Elliott Parker on LinkedIn.

9 Elo 44min

How Decision Journals Can Transform Product Owner Behavior | Florian Georgescu

How Decision Journals Can Transform Product Owner Behavior | Florian Georgescu

Florian Georgescu: How Decision Journals Can Transform Product Owner Behavior Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. The Great Product Owner: The Humble Learner Florian describes a Product Owner who started from scratch with business knowledge but no PO experience. This exemplary PO demonstrated transparency and engagement in their communication style, showed humility in recognizing knowledge gaps, and actively built strong relationships with the team. They used practical tools like a Product Canvas shared with the team, implemented "Story Time Tuesdays" for informal refinement sessions, and introduced feature learning cards to assess impact and learn from completed work. This PO's success came from embracing the learning journey openly and creating collaborative environments where both they and the team could grow together. The Bad Product Owner: The Command-and-Control Controller Florian encountered a Product Owner who transitioned from 20 years in project management, bringing a command-and-control style that frustrated the development team. Despite having good business and technical knowledge, this PO made technical decisions for the team without allowing input, particularly challenging since they were in a different location. Florian addressed this through a "decision journal" experiment over three sprints, documenting every product decision and analyzing their impact during retrospectives. This approach served as a powerful mirror, clearly showing that technical decisions made without team input produced poor results, ultimately helping both the PO and team recognize the importance of collaborative decision-making. Self-reflection Question: How does your Product Owner balance their expertise with the team's input, and what tools could help improve this collaboration? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] 🔥In the ruthless world of fintech, success isn't just about innovation—it's about coaching!🔥 Angela thought she was just there to coach a team. But now, she's caught in the middle of a corporate espionage drama that could make or break the future of digital banking. Can she help the team regain their mojo and outwit their rivals, or will the competition crush their ambitions? As alliances shift and the pressure builds, one thing becomes clear: this isn't just about the product—it's about the people. 🚨 Will Angela's coaching be enough? Find out in Shift: From Product to People—the gripping story of high-stakes innovation and corporate intrigue. Buy Now on Amazon [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] About Florian Georgescu Florian is a seasoned Agile Coach with 10+ years of experience guiding teams across startups to large enterprises. He specializes in tailoring workflows, mentoring Scrum Masters, and fostering collaboration. Passionate about continuous improvement, Florian helps organizations boost agility and align delivery with strategic goals for lasting impact. You can link with Florian Georgescu on LinkedIn.

8 Elo 17min

When Teams Embody Agility Without Having To Thinking About It | Florian Georgescu

When Teams Embody Agility Without Having To Thinking About It | Florian Georgescu

Florian Georgescu: When Teams Embody Agility Without Having To Thinking About It Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Florian defines success for Scrum Masters as achieving teams that embody agility naturally, without conscious effort. He identifies key behaviors that indicate true team maturity: team members openly discuss their needs and how to fulfill them, they embrace constructive conflict as productive and necessary, and developers can communicate with business stakeholders in accessible language rather than technical jargon. This level of success represents the ultimate goal for Scrum Masters – creating self-organizing teams that have internalized agile principles so deeply that they become second nature, enabling authentic collaboration and effective business communication. Featured Retrospective Format for the Week: Naikan Retrospective The Naikan Retrospective, based on a Japanese self-reflection practice, proved invaluable when Florian's team faced a catastrophic release failure during a Champions League game at a sports betting company. This format addresses three key questions: "What have I done successfully for my team?", "What did I get back from my team?", and "How did I support my team in these hard moments?" Despite initial concerns about team acceptance, this retrospective format provided structured relief during high-tension situations, allowed team members to express missing support needs, and created lasting positive impact. The human-centered approach helped the team process failure constructively and build stronger relationships through structured self-reflection. self-reflection Question: What behaviors in your team indicate they're truly embodying agility, and how might you recognize when they no longer need your guidance? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] 🔥In the ruthless world of fintech, success isn't just about innovation—it's about coaching!🔥 Angela thought she was just there to coach a team. But now, she's caught in the middle of a corporate espionage drama that could make or break the future of digital banking. Can she help the team regain their mojo and outwit their rivals, or will the competition crush their ambitions? As alliances shift and the pressure builds, one thing becomes clear: this isn't just about the product—it's about the people. 🚨 Will Angela's coaching be enough? Find out in Shift: From Product to People—the gripping story of high-stakes innovation and corporate intrigue. Buy Now on Amazon [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] About Florian Georgescu Florian is a seasoned Agile Coach with 10+ years of experience guiding teams across startups to large enterprises. He specializes in tailoring workflows, mentoring Scrum Masters, and fostering collaboration. Passionate about continuous improvement, Florian helps organizations boost agility and align delivery with strategic goals for lasting impact. You can link with Florian Georgescu on LinkedIn.

7 Elo 13min

From Resistance to Effective Change Leadership in Agile Adoption | Florian Georgescu

From Resistance to Effective Change Leadership in Agile Adoption | Florian Georgescu

Florian Georgescu: From Resistance to Effective Change Leadership in Agile Adoption Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Florian shares his transformation from resisting organizational standardization to becoming a champion of strategic alignment. Initially fearing that standardization would stifle innovation and turn agile practices into rigid frameworks, he discovered the bigger picture when he became scrum master chapter lead for 12 scrum masters across multiple locations and cultures. The breakthrough came from implementing a three-level standardization approach: level 1 for non-negotiables, level 2 for encouraged patterns, and level 3 for team-specific innovations. Using the 80/20 principle, they focused on the 20% of standards that would create 80% of alignment. The scrum master chapter became a learning hub where teams could share their level 3 innovations, creating a balance between consistency and creativity that enabled effective cross-tribe collaboration. Self-reflection Question: How might you balance the need for organizational alignment with preserving team autonomy and innovation in your current context? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] 🔥In the ruthless world of fintech, success isn't just about innovation—it's about coaching!🔥 Angela thought she was just there to coach a team. But now, she's caught in the middle of a corporate espionage drama that could make or break the future of digital banking. Can she help the team regain their mojo and outwit their rivals, or will the competition crush their ambitions? As alliances shift and the pressure builds, one thing becomes clear: this isn't just about the product—it's about the people. 🚨 Will Angela's coaching be enough? Find out in Shift: From Product to People—the gripping story of high-stakes innovation and corporate intrigue. Buy Now on Amazon [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] About Florian Georgescu Florian is a seasoned Agile Coach with 10+ years of experience guiding teams across startups to large enterprises. He specializes in tailoring workflows, mentoring Scrum Masters, and fostering collaboration. Passionate about continuous improvement, Florian helps organizations boost agility and align delivery with strategic goals for lasting impact. You can link with Florian Georgescu on LinkedIn.

6 Elo 13min

When Knowledge Hoarding Destroys Team Dynamics | Florian Georgescu

When Knowledge Hoarding Destroys Team Dynamics | Florian Georgescu

Florian Georgescu: When Knowledge Hoarding Destroys Team Dynamics Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Florian describes a payment system development team where an experienced tech lead unknowingly created a dangerous dependency. This senior developer, while well-intentioned, became the single point of knowledge and decision-making for the entire team. Other developers began copying his behavior, creating a culture where team members were afraid to ask questions for fear of appearing incompetent. When this key developer left, the team fell apart - planning sessions became confusing, technical discussions stalled, and two junior developers quit citing lack of learning opportunities. The story demonstrates how knowledge hoarding, even when unintentional, can destroy team resilience and create toxic dynamics that stifle growth and collaboration. In this segment, we refer to the Monday episode with Florian as context for the story he shares on this episode. Self-reflection Question: How might knowledge hoarding be happening in your team, and what steps could you take to encourage more distributed learning and decision-making? Featured Book of the Week: The Responsibility Process by Christopher Avery Florian The Responsibility Process by Christopher Avery particularly valuable for understanding the stages people go through when taking responsibility. The book's framework helped him process his own burnout experience and provides crucial insights for helping teams accept responsibility for their outcomes. Florian emphasizes how the responsibility process is essential for understanding what you can influence when you want to take ownership, making it a powerful tool for both personal growth and team development. In this segment, we refer to the Responsibility Process, by Christopher Avery, who was a previous guest on our Audiobook project: Tips From the Trenches, Scrum Master Edition. [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] 🔥In the ruthless world of fintech, success isn't just about innovation—it's about coaching!🔥 Angela thought she was just there to coach a team. But now, she's caught in the middle of a corporate espionage drama that could make or break the future of digital banking. Can she help the team regain their mojo and outwit their rivals, or will the competition crush their ambitions? As alliances shift and the pressure builds, one thing becomes clear: this isn't just about the product—it's about the people. 🚨 Will Angela's coaching be enough? Find out in Shift: From Product to People—the gripping story of high-stakes innovation and corporate intrigue. Buy Now on Amazon [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] About Florian Georgescu Florian is a seasoned Agile Coach with 10+ years of experience guiding teams across startups to large enterprises. He specializes in tailoring workflows, mentoring Scrum Masters, and fostering collaboration. Passionate about continuous improvement, Florian helps organizations boost agility and align delivery with strategic goals for lasting impact. You can link with Florian Georgescu on LinkedIn.

5 Elo 14min

From Burnout to Balance: A Scrum Master's Reality Check | Florian Georgescu

From Burnout to Balance: A Scrum Master's Reality Check | Florian Georgescu

Florian Georgescu: From Burnout to Balance: A Scrum Master's Reality Check Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Florian shares his experience of trying to single-handedly transform an entire IT service company, leading to what he calls the "superman scrum master syndrome." His story highlights the dangers of trying to be everywhere for everyone and create perfect change from the beginning. Working with a coach, Florian recognized the warning signs of burnout - exhaustion, frustration, and the unhealthy need to control everything. His journey teaches us that sustainable change takes time, and it's perfectly acceptable for things not to be perfect from the start. The key insight is learning to pace yourself and accept that meaningful transformation is a gradual process, not a solo mission. Self-reflection Question: When have you found yourself trying to be the "superman" in your role, and what signs helped you recognize it was unsustainable? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] 🔥In the ruthless world of fintech, success isn't just about innovation—it's about coaching!🔥 Angela thought she was just there to coach a team. But now, she's caught in the middle of a corporate espionage drama that could make or break the future of digital banking. Can she help the team regain their mojo and outwit their rivals, or will the competition crush their ambitions? As alliances shift and the pressure builds, one thing becomes clear: this isn't just about the product—it's about the people. 🚨 Will Angela's coaching be enough? Find out in Shift: From Product to People—the gripping story of high-stakes innovation and corporate intrigue. Buy Now on Amazon [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] About Florian Georgescu Florian is a seasoned Agile Coach with 10+ years of experience guiding teams across startups to large enterprises. He specializes in tailoring workflows, mentoring Scrum Masters, and fostering collaboration. Passionate about continuous improvement, Florian helps organizations boost agility and align delivery with strategic goals for lasting impact. You can link with Florian Georgescu on LinkedIn.

4 Elo 15min

Building Self-Awareness in Overly-Technical Product Owners | Anamaria Ungureanu

Building Self-Awareness in Overly-Technical Product Owners | Anamaria Ungureanu

Anamaria Ungureanu: Building Self-Awareness in Overly-Technical Product Owners Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. The Great Product Owner: The Master Storyteller Anamaria highlights a Product Owner who excelled at storytelling and vision communication, making every team member feel aligned with project goals. This exceptional PO consistently explained the "why" behind requirements and painted compelling pictures of how the team's current work would create future value. Their storytelling ability kept the team engaged and motivated, demonstrating how great Product Owners apply agile mindset principles to create shared understanding and purpose. The Bad Product Owner: The Monologue Specialist Anamaria describes a technically-skilled Product Owner who transitioned from a tech lead role but fell into the anti-pattern of excessive monologuing during sprint planning sessions. This PO, despite good intentions, overwhelmed the team with lengthy technical details, causing developers to withdraw from interactions and leaving them confused about project purposes. Through one-on-one coaching focused on building self-awareness and establishing working agreements, Anamaria helped this PO learn to communicate more effectively and engage collaboratively with the team. Self-reflection Question: How do you help Product Owners transition from technical expertise to effective team communication, and what signs indicate when detailed explanations become counterproductive monologues? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] 🔥In the ruthless world of fintech, success isn't just about innovation—it's about coaching!🔥 Angela thought she was just there to coach a team. But now, she's caught in the middle of a corporate espionage drama that could make or break the future of digital banking. Can she help the team regain their mojo and outwit their rivals, or will the competition crush their ambitions? As alliances shift and the pressure builds, one thing becomes clear: this isn't just about the product—it's about the people. 🚨 Will Angela's coaching be enough? Find out in Shift: From Product to People—the gripping story of high-stakes innovation and corporate intrigue. Buy Now on Amazon [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] About Anamaria Ungureanu Anamaria Ungureanu is an Agile evangelist driving transformations across IT, airlines, and automotive. She delivers projects with firms like IBM and Airbus, coaches from executives to teams in SAFe and Scrum, leads assessments, customizes workshops, and supports tool adoption, like Jira, and digital whiteboards like MIRO. You can link with Anamaria Ungureanu on LinkedIn.

1 Elo 14min

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