126. Sarah Scoles — They Are Already Here: UFO Culture and Why We See Saucers

126. Sarah Scoles — They Are Already Here: UFO Culture and Why We See Saucers

More than half a century since Roswell, UFOs have been making headlines once again. On December 17, 2017, the New York Times ran a front-page story about an approximately five-year Pentagon program called the Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program. The article hinted, and its sources clearly said in subsequent television interviews, that some of the ships in question couldn’t be linked to any country. The implication, of course, was that they might be linked to other solar systems. The UFO community—those who had been thinking about, seeing, and analyzing supposed flying saucers (or triangles or chevrons) for years—was surprisingly skeptical of the revelation. Their incredulity and doubt rippled across the internet. Many of the people most invested in UFO reality weren’t really buying it. And as Scoles did her own digging, she ventured to dark, conspiracy-filled corners of the internet, to a former paranormal research center in Utah, and to the hallways of the Pentagon.

In They Are Already Here we meet the bigwigs, the scrappy upstarts, the field investigators, the rational people, and the unhinged kooks of this sprawling community. How do they interact with each other? How do they interact with “anomalous phenomena”? And how do they (as any group must) reflect the politics and culture of the larger world around them? Funny and colorful, and told in a way that doesn’t require one to believe, Scoles brings humanity to an often derided and misunderstood community. Scoles and Shermer discuss:

  • who the “they” are in her title,
  • comparing the UFO community to that of SETI scientists, whom she wrote about in her previous book, Making Contact: Jill Tarter and the Search for Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence?
  • what it was like engaging UFOlogists at conferences,
  • her answer to the Fermi paradox: where is everyone?
  • what it means to “believe” in UFOs vs. ETIs,
  • Project Saucer, Project Sign, Project Grudge, Project Bluebook,
  • Robert Bigelow, Tom DeLonge, and the To the Stars Academy of Arts and Science,
  • the most probable explanation for the USS Nimitz UFO videos,
  • Kenneth Arnold, Roswell, Area 51, and modern myth making,
  • Scoles’ Mormon background and how she lost her religion, and
  • what we will replace religion with in the future.

Sarah Scoles is a science writer whose work has appeared in The Atlantic, Slate, Smithsonian, The Washington Post, Scientific American, Popular Science, Discover, New Scientist, Aeon, and Wired. A former editor at Astronomy magazine, Scoles worked at the National Radio Astronomy Observatory, the location of the first-ever SETI project. She lives in Denver, Colorado.

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How to Protect Children from Social Media and AI

How to Protect Children from Social Media and AI

Parenting today often feels like an uphill battle, with technology invading every corner of our kids’ lives. From the rise of social media addiction to the growing mental health crisis among children and teens, parents are grappling with how they can create a healthy, balanced relationship with technology for their kids. Drawing on her decades as a psychologist studying the impact of technology and mental health, Jean Twenge offers evidence-based advice for raising independent and well-rounded children. Jean Twenge, a professor of psychology at San Diego State University and the author of more than 190 scientific publications and several books based on her research, including Generation Me, iGen, and Generations, which we discussed on this show. Her research has been covered in Time, The Atlantic, Newsweek, and The Washington Post. She has also been featured on Today, Good Morning America, Fox and Friends, CBS This Morning, Real Time with Bill Maher, and NPR. Her new book is Ten Rules for Raising Kids in a High-Tech World.

9 Syys 30min

The Future of Space Exploration Amid NASA Mission Shutdowns

The Future of Space Exploration Amid NASA Mission Shutdowns

In this episode of The Michael Shermer Show, Michael Shermer interviews Alan Stern, a prominent planetary scientist and astronaut. Stern discusses his recent suborbital flight, the differences between government and private space initiatives, and the scientific implications of UFO sightings. He also shares insights about the evolution and future of space exploration, including details about the rarely talked about upcoming termination of dozens of already paid-for NASA missions. Alan Stern is a planetary scientist, astronaut, and author. NASA has selected him to be the first researcher NASA funded to fly to space as a crewmember aboard a commercial suborbital space mission. Since 2001 he has led NASA’s $900M New Horizons mission that explored the Pluto system and is now exploring the Kuiper Belt—the farthest exploration of worlds in history. In 2007 and 2008, Dr. Stern served as NASA’s chief of all space and Earth science programs, directing its $5B/year Science Mission Directorate (SMD), with 93 separate flight missions and a program of over 3,000 research grants. In 2022, he took part in a deep-sea expedition to explore the RMS Titanic in a submersible.

6 Syys 1h 5min

Why Do Humans Speak?

Why Do Humans Speak?

In a radical new story about the birth of our species, evolutionary biologist Madeleine Beekman argues that it was not hunting, fighting, or tool-making that forced early humans to speak, but the inescapable need to care for our children. Beekman reveals the “happy accidents” hidden in our molecular biology—DNA, chromosomes, and proteins—that led to one of the most fateful events in the history of life on Earth: our giving birth to babies earlier in their development than our hominid cousins the Neanderthals and Denisovans. Faced with highly dependent infants requiring years of nurturing and protection, early human communities needed to cooperate and coordinate, and it was this unprecedented need for communication that triggered the creation of human language—and changed everything. Madeleine Beekman is professor emerita of evolutionary biology and behavioral ecology at the University of Sydney, Australia. Her new book is The Origin of Language.

2 Syys 1h 11min

Depopulation: The Silent Global Emergency

Depopulation: The Silent Global Emergency

Economist Dean Spears explains the forces driving global population change, from past fears of overpopulation to today’s concerns about declining birth rates. He contrasts the perspectives of biologists and economists on population growth and highlights the role of human ideas and innovation in sustaining progress. Spears also discusses misconceptions about zero-sum economics, the links between population, health, and economic well-being, and the rise of anti-natalism. The conversation covers population size and environmental concerns, government policies on family planning, and why cultural attitudes toward reproduction may be as important as policy in addressing the challenges of a shrinking population. Dean Spears is an economist, demographer, and associate professor at the University of Texas at Austin. Spears is a founding executive director of r.i.c.e, (a research institute for compassionate economics), a nonprofit that works to promote children’s health, growth, and survival in rural India. Together with Michael Geruso, he is the author of the new book After the Spike: Population, Progress, and the Case for People.

30 Elo 1h 16min

Brainwashing, Mind Control, and Hyper-Persuasion

Brainwashing, Mind Control, and Hyper-Persuasion

Because brainwashing affects both the world and our observation of the world, we often don’t recognize it while it’s happening―unless we know where to look. As Rebecca Lemov writes in her new book The Instability of Truth, “Brainwashing erases itself.” What we call brainwashing is more common than we think; it is not so much what happens to other people as what can happen to anyone. In her work, Lemov exposes the myriad ways our minds can be controlled against our will, from the brainwashing techniques used against American POWs in North Korea to the “soft” brainwashing of social media doomscrolling and behavior-shaping. Rebecca Lemov is a historian of science at Harvard University and has been a visiting scholar at the Max Planck Institute. Her research explores data, technology, and the history of human and behavioral sciences. Her new book is The Instability of Truth: Brainwashing, Mind Control, and Hyper-Persuasion.

26 Elo 1h 24min

How Foreign Governments Influence U.S. Universities

How Foreign Governments Influence U.S. Universities

In an era of globalized education, where ideals of freedom and inquiry should thrive, an alarming trend has emerged: foreign authoritarian regimes influencing American academia. In her new book Authoritarians in the Academy, Sarah McLaughlin reveals how higher education institutions—long considered bastions of free thought—are compromising their values for financial gain and international partnerships. Her investigation uncovers the subtle yet sweeping influence of authoritarian governments, exposing university leaders who prioritize expansion and profit over the principles of free expression. She also describes incidents in which professors and administrators weighed the costs of offending repressive regimes that provide their funding. McLaughlin’s work offers a sobering look at how these compromises in academia mirror broader patterns across industries such as technology, sports, and entertainment. Sarah McLaughlin is a senior scholar of global expression at the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression (FIRE). Her writing about free speech issues, including protest and blasphemy laws, has been featured in publications including Foreign Policy and The Huffington Post. Her new book is Authoritarians in the Academy: How the Internationalization of Higher Education and Borderless Censorship Threaten Free Speech.

19 Elo 1h 9min

Can We Prevent Aging? Eric Topol on Genes, Lifestyle, and AI in Healthcare

Can We Prevent Aging? Eric Topol on Genes, Lifestyle, and AI in Healthcare

In this conversation, Michael Shermer and Dr. Eric Topol discuss the realties of aging, with particular focus on the role of AI in enhancing patient care and disease prevention, the importance of lifestyle factors, and the limitations of genetic testing in predicting health outcomes. Topol also explains the dangers of ultra-processed foods, their link to inflammation, and the role of GLP-1 drugs in promoting healthier eating habits. The conversation also covers diet, particularly the differences between chicken and red meat, and the significance of sleep for overall health. Plus, consumption of microplastics, cholesterol management and statins, the critical role of social connections in maintaining mental and physical health, and the future of personalized medicine in cancer prevention. Eric Topol is a cardiologist and one of the top ten most cited researchers in medicine, known for his groundbreaking studies on AI in medicine, genomics, and digitized clinical trials. Topol is also the executive vice president and a professor of molecular medicine at Scripps Research, the largest nonprofit biomedical institute in the United States. He was named one of the Top 100 most influential people in health in 2024 by Time. His new book is Super Agers.

18 Elo 1h 17min

Is Nuclear Energy Our Best Shot at Saving the Planet?

Is Nuclear Energy Our Best Shot at Saving the Planet?

Isabelle Boemeke explains how nuclear energy is our best option for ensuring the future of the planet—it can power cities, desalinate water, create carbon-free fertilizer, and heat homes, all with the smallest environmental footprint of any energy source. She also discusses common objections to nuclear energy, including safety concerns and waste management, the potential of microreactors, and the importance of nuclear energy in space exploration. Isabelle Boemeke is a nuclear electricity educator. Her new book is Rad Future: The Untold Story of Nuclear Electricity and How it Will Save the World.

12 Elo 1h 14min

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