286: A Living Language for Cider
Cider Chat1 Syys 2021

286: A Living Language for Cider

The quest to find the Language of Cider

Richie Brady is a graduate of the Wine & Spirit Education Trust (WSET) who also happens to have a love of cider. This scholarly Irishman used his shelter in place time during Covid to take a deep dive into cider's history on the Emerald Isle where the first known writings on cider dates back to 1115! On this journey to he has found that cider and wine both share a similar fate - there is no absolute language to describe the fermented juice of apples and grapes.

The questions become one of defining "How to taste cider" and as such how does one delineate and then describe the wide range of cider styles. He found that the lexicon of cider like wine still has a long way to go as it develops a vocabulary.

In short, there is no common lexicon or language for cider.

In this chat we discuss:

The Brehon Laws which are first set down on parchment in the 7th century and were named after wanderings lawyers, the Brehons. The Brehon Laws include details on the top trees to honor known as the "Lords of the Woods".

And yes, one of those Top Trees was the Apple. And the law detailed that if you damaged an apple tree there was a fine of 2 cows that were milking and a third cow! Dependent upon the damage done there were additional fines, such as planting an apple tree of the same variety

All this deep digging into the history of Ireland and cider was in preparation for his thesis for a Masters in Gastronomy and Food Studies from Technological University Dublin (TUDublin ). Besides the Brehon Laws he also found historical writings from The Gentlemen's Society of Dublin, which then became the Royal Society. The Society's writings date back to 1737 and he found that they had a penchant for cider! Their love of cider was so keen and held in such high esteem that members noted how they gifted each other with their fine cider.

Tracing a Language for Cider in Ireland

The Society's journals classified cider into 3 different styles.

1. Summer Cider

  • "Described as a weak juice from summer apples that has no body and therefore barely deserves the name cider"
  • However, this cider was still drunk and recommended to age for 6 months

2. Autumn Cider

Apple varieties

  • Pearmain
  • Red Streak
  • Golden Pippin - palatable liquor but with too much sweetness
  • High raisin taste and keeps tolerably well

Age for a year

3. Wildings and Harsh winter apples

  • "To attain this should be the aim to all those who deal in cider/"
  • Described as a "roughest kind of cider" that is mellowed by age

Age in barrel for 3-5 years.

Example of varieties

  • Cockagee
  • Burlington crab
  • Kendrick
  • Royal Wilding
Developing Language

Wine vs Cider

  • Richie proposed that because wine is seen as something that can age well and continues to develop in the bottle it encouraged people to talk about wine more, thus the language of wine developed.
  • Whereas despite the fact that some ciders like wine also develops and ages well in a bottle, cider for the most part has been made to drink sooner than later.

Interestingly, even great wine writers like Jancis Robinson who wrote the highly touted Oxford companion to Wine describes the wine lexicon "in its infancy."

And French oenologist and researcher Émile Peynaud says,

"We tasters to some extent feel betrayed by language"

How to create a language for Cider

  • Begin with agreeing to a specific style
    • agree upon the taxonomy of cider - co-fermented cider, heirloom, farmhouse...

Richie proposes that we begin by:

1. Approaching the glass

  • What is the profile of the cider in the glass
    • What is the acidity
    • Tannin? What is the nature of the tannin
    • The sweetness

2. If 12 ciders have a similar profile, put them in a group together

3. What would we name this group

  • Staying focused on the taste profile

4. Define rules and put it in a style - create rules

These simple steps on paper are a bit more complex as it will require compromise between many different parties world wide. Luckily patience is something that cider and wine teaches to makers and consumers alike.

Contact for Richie Brady

Follow Richie on Twitter @2mindtime

Mentions in this Chat

Australian Cider Producers

  • Small Acres Cyder
  • 3 Sons Cider
  • Northwest Cider Club - cider from the Pacific Northwest shipped directly to YOU!
    • Try the elevated box of cider, give cider as a gift that keeps giving!

Help Support Cider Chat Please donate today. Help keep the chat thriving!

Find this episode and all episodes at the page for Cider Chat's podcasts.

Tämä jakso on lisätty Podme-palveluun avoimen RSS-syötteen kautta eikä se ole Podmen omaa tuotantoa. Siksi jakso saattaa sisältää mainontaa.

Jaksot(520)

517: What Made ACE Cider Brand Worth $40+ Million

517: What Made ACE Cider Brand Worth $40+ Million

Jeffrey House and his wife Angela founded the California Cider Company in 1993 and built ACE Cider into a nationally distributed brand before selling the company in 2021. In this Cider Chat, Jeffrey g...

14 Loka 1h 5min

516: Tasting Time | Totally Cider Tour '26 - France

516: Tasting Time | Totally Cider Tour '26 - France

What does time taste like? Join Cider Chat MC Ria on the 2026 Totally Cider Tour through Normandy, Domfrontais and Brittany, where cider, poiré, Pommeau and Calvados become a way of experiencing place...

7 Loka 56min

515: World of Cider: The Baltic Region

515: World of Cider: The Baltic Region

What happens when a cider region has the apples, but not centuries of rules telling cidermakers what cider is supposed to be? Recorded at CiderCon 2026 in Providence, Rhode Island, this World of Cider...

23 Syys 51min

514: Doing More With Lees | Ryan Monkman

514: Doing More With Lees | Ryan Monkman

Lees are more than sediment at the bottom of a tank. Recorded at CiderCon 2026 in Providence, Rhode Island, cidermaker and fermentation consultant Ryan Monkman explores how cidermakers can put lees to...

9 Syys 53min

513: Still Cider, Single Apples and Time | Sowams, Rhode Island

513: Still Cider, Single Apples and Time | Sowams, Rhode Island

What happens when a cidermaker decides to do less and give cider more time? Spencer Morris of Sowams Cider Works in Warren, Rhode Island, makes cider with more than 70 apple varieties, old mechanical ...

26 Elo 1h 6min

512: Plant the Damn Apple Tree | Special Edition

512: Plant the Damn Apple Tree | Special Edition

Cider Chat MC Ria Windcaller reads her August eCiderNews editorial, Plant the Damn Apple Tree, reflecting on entrepreneurship, uncertainty, abundance, and what an apple tree might teach us about the t...

24 Elo 10min

511: Hungarian Cider Comes of Age | Bright Cider

511: Hungarian Cider Comes of Age | Bright Cider

Hungary may not have a centuries-old cider tradition like England or France, but that is exactly what makes its modern cider movement so exciting. In this episode, Cider MC Ria Windcaller travels to B...

12 Elo 54min

510: From Barrels to the Pub | The People's Cider Co., Michigan

510: From Barrels to the Pub | The People's Cider Co., Michigan

Most cider makers dream of expanding their barrel program. Jason Lummen did the opposite. In Episode 510, Ria Windcaller visits The People's Cider Company in Grand Rapids, Michigan, where Jason explai...

29 Heinä 59min

Suosittua kategoriassa Yhteiskunta

olipa-kerran-otsikko
sita
seitseman
siita-on-vaikea-puhua
i-dont-like-mondays
hupiklubi
poks
download
uutiscast
antin-palautepalvelu
mamma-mia
yopuolen-tarinoita-2
kaksi-aitia
rss-murhan-anatomia
kolme-kaannekohtaa
vallattomat
aikalisa
rss-palmujen-varjoissa
gogin-ja-janin-maailmanhistoria
mystista