Relief and Volatility Ahead for U.S. Stocks

As U.S. equity markets digest higher inflation and a more hawkish Fed, the question is when this will turn into a headwind for earnings growth.-----Transcript-----Welcome to Thoughts on the Market. I'm Mike Wilson, Chief Investment Officer and Chief U.S. Equity Strategist for Morgan Stanley. Along with my colleagues bringing you a variety of perspectives, I'll be talking about the latest trends in the financial marketplace. It's Monday, April 25th and 11:00 a.m. in New York. So let's get after it. As equity strategists our primary job is to help clients find the best areas of the market, at the right time. Over the past year our sector and style preferences have worked out very well as the market has gone nowhere. However, the market has been so picked over at this point, it's not clear where the next rotation lies. When that happens, it usually means the overall index is about to fall sharply, with almost all stocks falling in unison. In many ways, this is what we've been waiting for as our fire and ice narrative, a fast tightening Fed into the teeth of a slowdown, comes to its conclusion. While our defensive posture since November has been the right call, we can't argue for absolute upside anymore for these groups given the massive rerating that they've experienced in both absolute and relative terms. In many ways, this is a sign that investors know a slowdown is coming and are bracing for it by hiding in these kinds of stocks. In our view, the accelerated negative price action on Thursday and Friday last week may also support the view we are now moving to this much broader sell off phase. Another important signal from the market lately is how poorly materials and energy stocks have traded, particularly the former. To us, this is just another sign the market's realization that we are now entering the ice phase, when growth becomes the primary concern for stocks rather than inflation, the Fed and interest rates. On that note, more specifically, we believe inflation and inflation expectations have likely peaked. There's no doubt that a fall in inflation should take pressure off valuations for some stocks. The problem is that falling inflation comes with lower nominal GDP growth and therefore sales and earnings per share grow, too. For many companies, it could be particularly painful if those declines in inflation are swift and sharp. Of course, many will argue that a falling commodity prices will help the consumer. We don't disagree on the surface of that conclusion, but pricing has been a big reason why consumer oriented stocks have done so well. If pricing becomes less secure, the margin pressure we've been expecting to show up this year, may be just around the corner for such stocks, even as the consumer remains active. We can't help but think we are at an important inflection point for inflation, the mirror image of our call in April of 2020. At the time, we suggested inflation would be a big part of the next recovery and lead to extremely positive operating leverage and earnings growth. Fast forward to today, and that's where we are. The question now is will that positive tailwind continue? Or will it turn into a headwind for earnings growth? Our view is that it will be more of the latter for many sectors and companies, and this is why we've been positioned defensively and in stocks with high operational efficiency. The bottom line is that asset markets have been digesting higher inflation and a more hawkish fed path in reaction to that inflation. However, we are now entering a period when slowing growth will determine how stocks trade from here. Overall, the S&P 500 looks more vulnerable now than the average stock, the mirror image of the past year. We recommend waiting for the index to trade well below 4000 before committing new capital to U.S. equities. Thanks for listening! If you enjoy Thoughts on the Market, please take a moment to rate and review us on the Apple Podcasts app. It helps more people to find the show.

25 Huhti 20223min

Forecasts for China and other Emerging Markets have continued on a downtrend, extending last year’s underperformance, meaning investors might want to look into regions with a more favorable outlook.Important note regarding economic sanctions. This research references country/ies which are generally the subject of selective sanctions programs administered or enforced by the U.S. Department of the Treasury’s Office of Foreign Assets Control (“OFAC”), the European Union and/or by other countries and multi-national bodies. Users of this report are solely responsible for ensuring that their investment activities in relation to any sanctioned country/ies are carried out in compliance with applicable sanctions.-----Transcript-----Welcome to Thoughts on the Market. I'm Jonathan Garner, Chief Asia and Emerging Markets Equity Strategist for Morgan Stanley Research. Along with my colleagues bringing you a variety of perspectives, today I'll be talking about the key reasons why we recently reiterated our cautious stance on overall emerging market equities and also China equities. It's Friday, April 22nd at 8:00 p.m. in Hong Kong. Now, emerging market equities are underperforming again this year, and that's extending last year's underperformance versus developed market equities. And so indeed are China equities, the largest component of the Emerging Market Equities Index. This is confounding some of the optimism felt by some late last year that a China easing cycle could play its normal role in delivering a trend reversal. We have retained our cautious stance for a number of reasons. Firstly, the more aggressive stance from the US Federal Reserve, signaling a rapid move higher in US rates, is leading to a stronger US dollar. This drives up the cost of capital in emerging markets and has a directly negative impact on earnings for the Emerging Markets Index, where around 80% of companies by market capitalization derive their earnings domestically. Secondly, China's own easing cycle is more gradual than prior cycles, and last week's decision not to cut interest rates underscores this point. This decision is driven by the Chinese authorities desire not to start another leverage driven property cycle. Meanwhile, China remains firmly committed to tackling COVID outbreaks through a lockdown strategy, which is also weakening the growth outlook. Our economists have cut the GDP growth forecast for China several times this year as a result. Beyond these two factors, there are also other issues at play undermining the case for emerging market equities. Most notably, the strong recovery in services spending in the advanced economies in recent quarters is leading to a weaker environment for earnings growth in some of the other major emerging market index constituents, such as Korea and Taiwan. They have benefited from the surge in work from home spending on goods during the earlier phases of the pandemic. Meanwhile, the geopolitical risks of investing in emerging markets more generally have been highlighted by the Russia Ukraine conflict and Russia's removal from the MSCI Emerging Markets Index. So what do we prefer? We continue to like commodity producers such as Australia and Brazil, which are benefiting from high agricultural, energy and metals prices. We also favor Japan, which, unlike emerging markets, has more than half of the index deriving its earnings overseas and therefore benefits from a weaker yen. Thanks for listening. If you enjoy the show, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and share Thoughts on the Market with a friend or colleague today.

22 Huhti 20223min

U.S. Treasury bonds have seen significant losses over the last six months, but looking forward investors may be able to use bonds to help balance their cross-asset portfolio in an uncertain market.-----Transcript-----Welcome to Thoughts on the Market. I'm Andrew Sheets, Chief Cross Asset Strategist for Morgan Stanley. Along with my colleagues bringing you a variety of perspectives, I'll be talking about trends across the global investment landscape and how we put those ideas together. It's Thursday, April 21st at 2pm in London. Like any good team, most balanced investment portfolios are built with offense and defense. Stocks are usually tasked to play that proverbial offensive role, producing the majority of inflation adjusted returns over the long run. But because these equity returns come with high volatility, investors count on bonds for defense, asking bonds to provide stability during times of uncertainty with a little bit of income along the way. At least that's the idea. And for most of the last 40 years, it's worked pretty well. But lately it really hasn't. The last 6 months have seen the worst total returns for U.S. 10 year Treasury bonds since 1980, with losses of more than 10%. Investors are likely looking at what they thought was the defense in their portfolio, with a mix of frustration and disbelief. On April 9th, we closed our long held underweight in U.S. bonds in our asset allocation and moved back up to neutral. Part of our reasoning was, very simply, that significantly higher yields now improved the forward looking return profile for bonds relative to other assets. But another part of our thinking is the belief that going forward, bonds will be more effective at providing defense for other parts of the portfolio. We think the path here is twofold. First, even as bonds have struggled year to date, the correlation of U.S. Treasuries to the S&P 500 is still roughly zero. That means stocks and bonds are still mostly moving independent of each other on a day to day basis, and supports the idea that bonds can lower overall volatility in a balanced portfolio if yields have now seen their major adjustment. Second, if we think about why bonds provide defense, it's that when the economy is poor, earnings and stock prices tend to go down. But a poor economy will also lead central banks to lower interest rates, which generally pushes bond prices up. Recently, this dynamic has struggled. Interest rates were so low, with so little in future rate increases expected that it was simply very hard for these rate expectations to decline if there was any bad economic data. But that's now changed and in a really big way. As recently as September of last year, markets were expecting just 25 basis points of interest rate increases from the Federal Reserve over the following 12 months. That number is now 275 basis points. If the U.S. economy unexpectedly slows or the recent rise in interest rates badly disrupt the housing market, two developments that the stock market might dislike, markets might start to think the Fed will do less. They will apply fewer rate increases and thus give support to bonds under this negative scenario. That would be a direct way that bonds would once again provide portfolio defense. Bonds still face challenges. But after a historically bad run, we are no longer underweight, and think they can once again prove useful within a broader cross asset portfolio. Thanks for listening! Subscribe to Thoughts on the Market on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen and leave us to review. We'd love to hear from you.

21 Huhti 20223min

Although consensus forecasts for European equities continue to trend up, there are a few key risks on the horizon that investors may want to keep an eye on during the upcoming earnings season and year ahead.-----Transcript-----Welcome to Thoughts on the Market. I'm Graham Secker, Head of Morgan Stanley's European Equity Strategy Team. Along with my colleagues bringing you a variety of perspectives, I'll be talking about the upcoming earnings season here in Europe and why we think corporate margins look set to come under pressure in the coming months. It's Wednesday, April the 20th at 2pm in London. This week marks the start of the first quarter earnings season for European companies, and we expect to see another "net beat", with more companies exceeding estimates than missing. However, while this may sound encouraging, we expect the size of this beat to be considerably smaller than recent quarters, which have been some of the best on record. At the same time, we think commentary around future trends is likely to turn more cautious, given triple headwinds from elevated geopolitical risks, an increasingly stagflation like economy and intensifying pressures on corporate margins. And we think this last point is probably the most underappreciated risk to European equities at this time. Historically, European margins have been positively correlated to inflation. Which likely reflects the index's sizable exposure to commodity sectors, and also the fact that the presence of inflation itself tends to signal both a strong topline environment and a positive pricing power dynamic for companies. In this regard, we note the consensus sales revisions for European companies are currently close to a 20-year high. So far, so good. However, the influence of inflation on the bottom line depends much more on its relative relationship with real GDP growth. Put simply, when inflation is below real GDP growth margins tend to rise, but when inflation is above real GDP growth, as it is now, margins and profitability in general tend to fall. As of today, consensus forecasts for European margins have yet to turn down. However, we have seen earnings revisions turn negative in recent weeks, such as the gap between sales revisions, which are currently positive, and earnings revisions, currently negative, has never been wider. In addition to this warning signal on margins from higher input costs, companies are also continuing to deal with challenging supply chain issues, whether related to the conflict in Eastern Europe or to the recent COVID lockdowns in China. A recent survey from the German Chambers of Commerce suggested that 46% of companies supply chains are completely disrupted or severely impacted by the current COVID 19 situation in China. In contrast, just 7% of companies reported no negative impact at all. For now, the market appears to be ignoring these warning signs. Consensus 2022 earnings estimates for the MSCI Europe Index are still trending up and have now risen by 5% year to date. This compares to a much smaller 2% upgrade for U.S. earnings and actual downgrades for Japan and emerging markets. While commodity sectors are the main source of this European upgrade, the absence of any offsetting downgrades across other sectors feels unsustainable to us. Ahead of every earnings season, we survey our European analysts to gather their views on the credibility of consensus forecasts. This quarter, the survey generally supports our own top down views, with our analysts expecting a small upside beat to consensus numbers in the first quarter, but then seeing downside risks for the full year 2022 estimates. This is the first time in nearly two years that this survey has given us a cautious message. Taking it to the sector level, our analysts see the greatest downside risks to consensus estimates for banks, construction, industrials, insurance, media, retailing and consumer staples. In contrast, our analysts see upside risks to earnings forecasts for brands, chemicals, energy, mining, healthcare and utilities. Historically, a move higher in equity valuations often tends to mitigate the impact on market performance from prior periods of earnings downgrades. However, we are skeptical that price to earnings ratios will rise much from here, as long as global central banks remain hawkish. Consequently, we continue to see an unattractive risk reward profile for European stocks just here and suggest investors wait for a better entry point, after economic and earnings expectations have reset lower. Thanks for listening. If you enjoy the show, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and share Thoughts on the Market with a friend or colleague today.

20 Huhti 20224min

As the U.S. Economy contends with higher inflation, supply chain stress, and rising recession risks, one indicator to keep an eye on is what’s going on at the sector level and how U.S. business conditions may help shape the economic outlook.-----Transcript-----Welcome to Thoughts on the Market. I'm Robert Rosener, Senior U.S. Economist for Morgan Stanley Research. Along with my colleagues bringing you a variety of perspectives, I'll be sharing a read on how industries across the U.S. may be viewing the current economic environment. It's Tuesday, April 19th at noon in New York. As we move through the economic recovery and expansion that has been uneven, it's increasingly important to track what's going on at the sector level. And collaboratively with our equity analysts we do exactly that with our Morgan Stanley Business Conditions Index; a monthly survey to track what's going on across industries. With the MSBCI we try to put all of those stories together into one coherent macro signal, from 0 to 100, where 50 is the even mark, above 50 is expansion and below 50 is contraction.It incorporates a variety of data points on hiring plans, capex plans, advance bookings and how those factors are evolving. Now, amid a more challenging and uncertain economic backdrop with higher inflation, supply chain stress and concerns about rising recession risks, I'd like to dive into a few key findings from our most recent survey to give listeners a picture of how U.S. businesses might be seeing the current environment. First, in our April survey the headline measure for the MSBCI fell to a two year low of 44. We saw that decline in the index as driven by a deterioration in sentiment, because it coincided with a sharp pullback in business conditions expectations - so how analysts are seeing the forward trajectory for activity. And that decline in sentiment was particularly concentrated in the manufacturing sector, where we had a sharp decline in the MSBCI manufacturing component, while service sector activity appeared to bounce a little bit but remained at low levels. When we look at the underlying details, the fundamental components of the survey were more mixed this month. So downside in our survey was led by business conditions expectations, as well as advance bookings and more strikingly, credit conditions. Now some of this can be noise, and we need to look very carefully through the data to see if we can identify a clear trend. Advance bookings, the decline there may have been more noise, but we are monitoring credit conditions very closely as the Fed tries to tighten financial conditions with its monetary policy stance. We also got a bit of insight into supply chain conditions in this report. Responses from analysts in our survey indicated some stalling in the improvement in April, and a pickup in the share of analysts who reported that conditions remained unchanged. Which is broadly consistent with what we've seen in other indicators. Nevertheless, analysts generally expect improvement in supply conditions over the next 3 months.Finally, there was some good news in the survey on business investment plans, what we call capex, as well as hiring plans. There was some moderation, but the two factors remain bright spots in the report, with upside in capex plans, and hiring plans coming back but holding at a fairly solid level. So what does this all tell us about how businesses see the road ahead? First, there's important momentum in hiring and capex. With respect to inflation, the deterioration we saw in supply conditions during the month does point to some upside risk for prices in the near term, and that was also reflected in strong upward pressure in the MSBCI pricing measures during the month. We can also see that businesses are facing increased uncertainty about the outlook. That's clear looking at the deterioration in sentiment, and that's clear looking at the pullback in business conditions expectations. So firms are watching the pace and trajectory of economic activity carefully. So it will continue to be important to watch these stories to judge what's going on at the sector level and how that's all coming together to shape the economic outlook. Thanks for listening. If you enjoy the show, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and share Thoughts on the Market with a friend or colleague today.

20 Huhti 20224min

While ongoing inflation has had some positive effects, consumers continue to feel its ill effects and we are beginning to see net negatives for earnings growth as Q1 earnings season begins.-----Transcript-----Welcome to Thoughts on the Market. I'm Mike Wilson, Chief Investment Officer and Chief U.S. Equity Strategist for Morgan Stanley. Along with my colleagues bringing you a variety of perspectives, I'll be talking about the latest trends in the financial marketplace. It's Monday, April 18th at 3 p.m. in New York. So let's get after it. Last week, we discussed how stocks were sending different messages about growth than bonds. We laid out our case for why stocks are likely to be the most trusted on this messaging and reiterated our preference for late cycle defensives that we've held since November. This week, we lay out the case for why this earnings season may finally bring the downward revisions to forward earnings forecasts that have remained elusive thus far. While we appreciate how inflation can be good for nominal GDP and therefore revenue growth, we think the inflation we are experiencing now is no longer a net positive for earnings growth for several reasons. First, there's a latent impact of inflation on costs that are now showing up in margins. Secondarily, the spike in energy and food costs, which serve as a tax on the consumer that is already struggling with high prices. In other words, we think the positive effects of inflation on earnings growth have reached their peak, and are now more likely to be a headwind to growth, particularly as inflation forces the Fed to be increasingly bearish, which leads to another headwind - significantly higher long term interest rates. More specifically, the average 30 year fixed mortgage rate is now above 5%, which is more than 60% higher since the start of the year, and why mortgage applications are also down more than 60% from their peak last year. This hasn't gone unnoticed by the market, by the way, which has punished housing related stocks to the tune of 40% or more. Given the long tailed effect that housing has on the economy, we think this is a major headwind to economic and earnings growth more broadly. Perhaps this explains why the de-rating has been so severe in the economically sensitive areas of the market, while defensive areas have actually seen valuations expand. This suggests the market is worrying about higher rates and slower growth, even as the overall index remains expensive. This is also very much in line with our view for defensives to dominate in this late cycle environment. However, the overall index remains a bit of a mystery, with the price earnings multiple down only 11% in the face of much higher interest rates. We chalk this up to the incredibly strong flows into equities from asset owners, which include retail, pension funds and endowments. These investors seem to have made a decision to abandon bonds in favor of stocks, which are a much better inflation hedge. These flows are keeping the main index more expensive, thereby leaving the real message about growth at the sector level. As already suggested, we think that message is crystal clear and in line with our own view that growth is slowing and likely more than most are forecasting. Especially for 2023, when the risk of a recession is increased. With regard to that view, signs are emerging that first quarter earnings season may disappoint, particularly from a guidance and forward earnings standpoint. More specifically, earnings revisions breadth for the S&P 500 has resumed its downward trend over the past 2 weeks, and is once again approaching negative territory. This is largely being driven by declining revisions in cyclical industries where we've been more negative. These include consumer discretionary, industrials, tech hardware and semiconductors. Negative revisions are often an indication that forward earnings estimates are going to flatten out or even fall. When forward earnings fall, it's usually not good for stocks and may even break the pattern of strong inflows to equities, as investors rethink their decision to use stocks at this point as a good hedge against inflation. Bottom line, stick with more defensively oriented sectors and stocks as earnings visibility is challenged for the average company. Secondarily, wait for at least one or two rounds of earnings cuts at the S&P level before adding to broader equity risk. Thanks for listening! If you enjoy Thoughts on the Market, please take a moment to rate and review us on the Apple Podcasts app. It helps more people to find the show.

19 Huhti 20224min

While there continues to be a lot of market chatter surrounding recession risks and the U.S. Treasury yield curve, there are several key factors that make the most recent dip into inversion different. Chief Global Economist Seth Carpenter and Head of U.S. Interest Rate Strategy Guneet Dhingra discuss.-----Transcript-----Seth Carpenter: Welcome to Thoughts on the Market. I'm Seth Carpenter, Morgan Stanley's Chief Global Economist, Guneet Dhingra: and I'm Guneet Dhingra, Head of U.S. Interest Rate Strategy. Seth Carpenter: And on this episode of Thoughts on the Market, we're going to be discussing the sometimes inconsistent signals of economic recession and what investors should be watching. It's Thursday, April 14th at 10 a.m. in New York. Seth Carpenter: All right, Guneet, as I think most listeners probably know by now, there's a lot of market chatter about recession risks. However, if you look just at the hard data in the United States, I think it's clear that the U.S. economy right now is actually quite strong. If you look at the last jobs report, we had almost 450,000 new jobs created in the month of March. And between that, the strength of the economy right now and the multi-decade highs in inflation, the Federal Reserve is ready to go, starting to tighten monetary policy by raising short term interest rates and running off its balance sheet. That said, every time short term interest rates start to rise, they rise more than longer term interest rates do, and we get a flattening in the yield curve. The yield curve flattened so much recently that it actually inverted briefly where 2's were higher than 10's in yield. And as we've talked about before on this very podcast, there has been historically a signal from an inverted 2s10s curve to a recession probability, rising and rising and rising. Some of the work you've been doing recently, I think you've argued very eloquently, that this time is different. Can you walk me through why this time is different? Guneet Dhingra: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, right now you cannot have a conversation with investors without discussing yield curve inversion and the associated recession risks. So I think the way I've been framing it, this time is different because of two particular reasons that haven't been always true. The first one is the yield curve today is artificially very distorted by a multitude of factors. The number one and the most obvious one is the massive amounts of central bank bond buying from the Fed, from the ECB, from the Bank of Japan over the last few years. And so that puts a lot of flattening pressure on the curve, which makes it appear that the curve is too flat, whereas in practice it's just the residual effect of how central banks have affected the yield curve. On top of that, what's also happening is the Fed is obviously trying to address the inflation risk and they are looking to make policy restrictive in the next couple of years. So take the dot plot for instance, right, at the March meeting the Fed gave us a dot plot where the median participant expects the Fed funds rate to get to close to 3% in 2023, and the neutral rate that they see for the economy is close to 2.5%. So in essence, the Fed is telegraphing a form of inversion and ultimately the markets are mimicking what the Fed is telling them, which naturally leads to some curve inversion. So overall, I would say a combination of artificially flattening forces, a restrictive fed, just means that 2s10s curve today is not the macro signal it used to be. Seth Carpenter: Got it, got it, so that helps and that squares things, I think, with the way we on the economics team are looking at it. Because in our baseline forecast, there is not a recession in the US. But if that's right, and if we end up avoiding a recession, you've got a bunch of clients, we've got a bunch of clients who are trying to make trades in a market. What are you telling investors that they should be doing, how do you trade in an environment with an inverted curve? Guneet Dhingra: Right. So I think the way I talk to investors about this issue is the 2s10s curve merely inverting is not the signal used to be, which means for the yield curve to be predictive for a recession this time, the level threshold is much lower. So, for instance, you can imagine an economy where 2s10s curve inverting to minus 50 or minus 75 is the real true signal for a slowdown ahead and a recession ahead. And so what I tell investors today is do not get concerned about the yield curve getting to 0 basis points, there's a lot more room for the yield curve to keep inverting. And the target you should have for yield curve flattening trade should be more like minus 50 or minus 75. Seth Carpenter: Got it. That that's a very big difference, very far away from where we are now. And in fact, as I mentioned earlier, the inversion that we did see was somewhat short lived and we've actually had a bit of a steepening off the back of it. I guess one question, and this is something that you've also written about is, what's driving that tightening? Is it because the Fed is going to be unwinding its balance sheet, doing so-called quantitative tightening. If the quantitative easing that they were doing flattened the curve, are you seeing the quantitative tightening is the thing that's going to be steepening the curve? Guneet Dhingra: I think instinctively, many investors think tightening is the opposite of easing, so that must mean quantitative tightening is the opposite of quantitative easing. And that's why I think a big fallacy lies in how people are simplifying the understanding of QT. I think the reality is quantitative tightening is perhaps not the perfect term for what the Fed is going to do next. The main thing to understand here is when the Fed does QE, the Fed chooses which part of the Treasury curve are they going to target, and that ultimately decides whether the curve will steepen or flatten. However, in this case, it's the U.S. Treasury, which is going to decide once the Fed stops reinvesting, how will the U.S. Treasury respond by increasing supply in the front end or the back end? And that decides whether the yield curve should steepen or flatten, quite the opposite from QE where the Fed decides. So the way I sort of summarize this to people is QT is not the opposite of QE, asset sales are. So Seth, you spent 15 years working at the Fed. Do you think the FOMC cares about an inverted curve? Seth Carpenter: I would not say that the core of the FOMC cares about an inverted curve the same way that the average market participant does. I think it's undeniable that the Fed is aware of all of the research, all of the history, all of the correlation between an inverted curve and a recession. But I don't think it's a dispositive signal. And by that what I mean is, if we got to the point where the 2s10s curve were pancake flat, it was a zero or even slightly inverted, but if at the same time we were still getting 400-500,000 nonfarm payrolls per month, I think then that signal from the yield curve would get dismissed against the evidence that the economy is very, very strong. So I think an inverted curve is the sort of thing that would cause the Fed to double check their math in some sense. But it's not going to be the signal by itself. And then, going back to what you had said earlier about the dot plot. I think that's very important. What the Fed is trying to do is engineer a so-called soft landing. That is, they are trying to tighten policy so that the economy slows a lot, but not too much. So that the inflationary pressures that we see start to abate. How would they do that? Well, in part, they'd be raising the short term interest rate. They'd be raising it above their own estimate of neutral. And as you pointed out, in their last dot plot they said they'll go up to maybe 3% before eventually coming back down to 2.5%. So achieving that soft landing is almost surely going to end up creating an inverted yield curve anyway. Guneet Dhingra: Yeah, so you talk about the Fed engineering a soft landing. Have they successfully done it in the past? And what makes you think that they can do it this time? Seth Carpenter: So two very, very important questions. The answer to the first one, have they done it in the past, is a bit in the eye of the beholder. If you listen to Chair Powell a couple of weeks ago, when he gave a speech at the National Association of Business Economists conference, he gave at least three different examples where he says historically the Fed has achieved a soft landing. If I was going to point to a soft landing, I would look at 1994 to 1995. The economy did slow pretty dramatically after the Fed had hiked rates fairly aggressively, and then the Fed paused the hiking and eventually reversed course, and the economic expansion continued. I think you could consider that to be a soft landing. The big difference this time is that this is the first rate hiking cycle since the 1970s where the Fed is actively trying to bring inflation down. Whereas the more recent cycles have been the Fed trying to keep inflation from rising above their target. So bringing it down as opposed to keeping it down are two very different things. So the way I like to think about it is the Fed's got a very difficult job. Can they do it? Yes, I absolutely think they can do it. And part of what gives me hope is the episode in late 2018 to early 2019, the last time the Fed was hiking, running off the balance sheet, raising short term interest rates. We had that period where the economy slowed, risk markets cracked. And what did the Fed do? They reversed course. Chair Powell has taken to using the word nimble a lot recently. I think if they can be that responsive to conditions, it increases the chances that they pull it off. But it's going to be difficult. Seth Carpenter: Well Guneet, I think we would both agree that we don't think an inverted yield curve is signaling a recession, but that doesn't mean that one can't happen. The world is an uncertain place, but thanks for joining us and taking the time to talk. Guneet Dhingra: Absolutely. Great speaking to you Seth. Seth Carpenter: And as a reminder, if you enjoy Thoughts on the Market, please take a moment to rate and review us on the Apple Podcasts app. It helps more people to find the show.

15 Huhti 20229min

As investors continue to discuss the uncertainty surrounding the U.S. Treasury market, there may be some good news for bond holders as the year progresses.-----Transcript-----Welcome to Thoughts on the Market. I'm Michael Zezas, Head of Public Policy Research and Municipal Strategy for Morgan Stanley. Along with my colleagues bringing you a variety of perspectives, I'll be talking about the intersection between U.S. Public Policy and financial markets. It's Wednesday, April 13th at 10 a.m. in New York. It's been a tough year for bond investors so far. As inflation picked up, the Fed signaled its intent to hike rates rapidly. That pushed market yields for bonds higher and prices lower. And with the latest consumer price index showing prices rose 8.5% over the past year, bond investors could, understandably, be concerned that there's still more poor returns to come. But we're a bit more optimistic and see reason to think that bonds could deliver positive returns through year-end and, accordingly, play the volatility dampening role they typically play in one's multi-asset portfolio. Accordingly, our cross-asset team is no longer underweight government bonds. And our interest rate strategy team has said that the recent increase in longer maturity bond yields have put that group in overshoot territory. What's the fundamental basis for this thinking? In short, it has to do with something economists typically call demand destruction. Basically, it's the idea that as prices on a product increase, perhaps due to inflation, they reach a point where fewer consumers are willing or able to purchase that product. That in turn crimps economic growth and, accordingly, one would expect that longer maturity bond yields would rise less, or perhaps even decline, to reflect an expectation of lower inflation and economic growth down the road. And we're starting to see evidence of that demand destruction. Last week we talked about how the federal government was attempting to reduce the price of oil by selling some of its strategic petroleum reserve. But it's noteworthy that the biggest declines in the price of oil from its recent highs happened before this announcement, suggesting that the price surge at the pump was already crimping demand, resulting in prices having to come back down to put supply and demand in balance. You can also see similar evidence in the market for used cars. For example, used car dealer CarMax reported this week its biggest earnings miss in four years. Management cited car affordability as a key reason that it sold less cars year over year. So the bottom line is this: bond investors may have taken some pain this year, but that doesn't mean it's time to run from the asset class. In fact, there's good reason to believe it can deliver on its core goal for many investors, diversification in uncertain markets. Thanks for listening. If you enjoy the show, please share Thoughts on the Market with a friend or colleague, or leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps more people find the show.

13 Huhti 20222min