🎙️ FS79_Julia Slay & Ending Sessions Well

In today's episode, Olivia is joined by Julia Slay, founder of Facilitation 101, to explore an often-overlooked part of facilitation: how we end sessions well.

With 15+ years' experience across social policy, consultancy and learning design, Julia shares her journey into facilitation and what sparked her growing fascination with powerful endings.

They talk about:

• Why endings matter,and common mistakes at the close of sessions — rushed checkouts, lack of closure, and clunky feedback moments.
  
  

• How to design meaningful endings, using buffer time, reflection, grounding and action planning. The power of circularity too.
  
  

• Extending the ending beyond the room, with follow-ups and reconnection sessions.Plus creative closing practices, from body-based grounding to sound and movement.
  
  

Quote highlights

"A strong ending creates a feeling of completeness."

"Reflection without action feels unfinished."

Links

Today's guest:

Julia Slay, Founder, Facilitation 101
https://www.facilitation101.co.uk/courses?tag=Intensive
https://myfreelancelife.substack.com/?r=b48m9&utm_campaign=pub-share-checklist
https://www.linkedin.com/in/julia-slay-aa02b240/

Today's host:

Olivia Bellas - Coach, Faciitator, Learning Experience Designer
https://www.linkedin.com/in/oliviabellas/

To find out more about Facilitation Stories and the IAF England & Wales Chapter:

🎧 https://facilitationstories.libsyn.com/
📧 podcast@iaf-englandwales.org
🌐 https://www.iaf-world.org/site/chapters/england-wales

Transcript

Olivia Bellas Welcome to facilitation stories. How do facilitators end up in the profession? What methods and techniques can we learn together?

And we discover it all in this community Podcast, brought to you by the England and Wales chapter of the International Association of Facilitators, also known as IAF. My name is Olivia, and today I'm talking with Julia. S. Julia is the founder and director of Facilitation 1 0 1, which began in 2023 after a simple request for a two hour session, which turned into a three day intensive.

This is the course that now distills everything she wishes she'd known when she first started facilitating previous to all of this. She held a range of different roles, across social policy and charities, meaning now 15 years of experience designing and leading workshops, strategy sessions, and learning programs.

So everything from away days and team development to full strategy. Retreats and international events. And in my opinion, also I must follow on LinkedIn for her generous and human sharings on navigating the world of facilitation. Julia, it's great to have you. Welcome.

Julia Slay Oh, lovely to be here. And that was a very kind, generous introduction as well. Wow. Yeah. Thank you.

Olivia Bellas Well, welcome. Welcome. So really looking forward to chatting today, and I know that we have a focus area. Mm-hmm. Which we will get into. So that focus area is looking at endings in workshops and why they're valuable, how we can do them. But for that, I wanted to kick off with, something that makes you smile.

So thinking about your world of facilitation at the moment, what's making you smile?

Julia Slay Mm, well, lots of things. I often feel like I have somehow landed doing a job that doesn't really feel like work. And surely that's like the dream. Well, it is for me anyway, that it's, , each day mostly. There are some small exceptions that mostly I feel really.

Energized, focused, joyful with the work. But something that does always make me smile is when I'm running the training side of the work, I do the facilitation training through facilitation 1 0 1, and I'm in a room with really brilliant facilitators who often come from quite a wide range of disciplines, and they bring in their experience and I get to see and learn from them.

Which is, which is kind of the. For me, one of the secret joys of running training is that you are learning all the time as well. And there was a course I ran a couple of weeks ago and someone who comes from a kind of theater background and has done a lot of work with, um, theater of the Oppressed was running an activity with the group and I just.

Had a smile all over my face. She did an incredible job. And I kind of walked away thinking, yeah, I mean, I got to learn something new today that I've never seen before, and I absolutely loved it. So that, that brings me a lot of joy in my work at the moment.

Olivia Bellas Hmm. Yeah, so you get the opportunity to, to have multiple smiles because of all of those, different perspectives of facilitators you are encountering.

And actually, I'm quite. Intrigued by that. So you had someone from a theater background. , What other kinds of facilitators are you encountering?

Julia Slay Yeah, well it's, it's getting much more diverse. Mm-hmm. I would say a year ago I was primarily working with and training people who were freelance. So, uh, self-employed, , people who often had a combination of kind of coaching, consultant facilitator roles.

They had what I would call capital F facilitation. So they were kind of identifying and marketing themselves as a facilitator and much more. Now, certainly in my orbit, I am meeting people who. Talk about themselves as using facilitation skills, but they are not necessarily,, freelance and they're they're often more kind of internal.

I have had people recently coming on training from the navy, from big tech companies, from um, you know, kinda team leaders and senior managers who are thinking a lot about, , the way they run their team meetings and their away days. I'm really enjoying seeing people connect with the skill and, , making connections between the work they do and facilitation skills and being able to see how. Powerful it could be when they brought it into their orbit. And I've also, I guess, I mean I do, as you said at the beginning, I do a lot of LinkedIn posts.

I spend quite, quite a lot of my time on there, and I have really enjoyed. Getting more international exposure through that. Um, and, and seeing and learning from people who are applying facilitation in very, very different contexts. Um, some brilliant facilitators in, uh, New Zealand, in North America. We had a conversation a couple of weeks ago about some facilitators in Mexico who you had connected with, and I'm very keen to get their names from you as well.

Quite a lot in South Africa and in India. So I'm really, I, I feel like. You know, I'm very exposed to a, not even Eurocentric, like British centric way of thinking about facilitation. And I think through LinkedIn I'm . Learning a lot more about different, , countries, different , cultures and how they approach facilitation as well.

Olivia Bellas But you made a really interesting distinction between facilitation as a skill and I think probably. There's also the facilitator as a, a job or a role as, as well. , So I think it's, it seems like people are noticing the value of those skills in particular a lot more, , which is really, really exciting.

And. And so how, how did you get here? Very interested in that. Lots of different paths and journeys I know facilitators have had, , to get to where they are. . Can you say a bit about . Yours?

Julia Slay Yeah. Well, I. It, it was, I think, I think I know very few people. In fact, I dunno if I know anyone who woke up one day and was like, I wanna be a facilitator.

So I think like lots of people, I kind of came into it by accident and was using the skills before I really knew the word existed. But, , I came through two roots. I think one was, well, maybe three. One was I had done a lot of work in my. Twenties working in a kind of think tank and consultancy, running training and workshops.

So a lot of those workshops I would never have used the term facilitation. We talked about kind of hosting round tables and running events, but really we were trying to make them much more participatory to bring in structure, to bring in, you know, interesting ideas about how to prompt thinking and dialogue.

So there was the kind of training, and I did some train the trainer training at that point in my life. And then I did some coaching training and went quite deep into team coaching and quality improvement coaching. Um, and that to me, there's like a very fine line between group coaching and facilitation.

You know, that's quite blurry . , So those were I guess, the two skill sets that felt very facilitation adjacent. And then, , when I left my last kind of quote unquote proper job, which was at the Greater London Authority, so the GLA kind of policy role there, I went freelance and was labeling myself as like a strategy research policy consultant.

Actually what people started employing me for was facilitation. And uh, people started saying, can you facilitate this away day? Can you facilitate this strategy process? Can you facilitate this community of practice? And one day I remember changing the signature on my email and thinking, you know, I didn't even know this word existed two years ago, and now apparently I am one.

So it was almost kind of. By by accident. I guess it was the main skill I was using as a consultant, and I do think a lot of people who are freelance consultants are using facilitation skills, whether or not they call themselves a facilitator, that is like a really core skillset for them.

Olivia Bellas I think a really interesting point you made was that exactly, there's lots of people that are essentially doing this kind of thing already without necessarily knowing it and giving it a name. And actually you mentioned the GLA, which is where we actually met and we're working there.

And similarly. Working in social policy, community engagement, doing this work around better conversations and kind of dynamics between groups, but not, not necessarily having a label.

Julia Slay And, and I would say not necessarily having as much skill or structure as I would've liked.

I certainly, I definitely look back now at some of the engagement events, at some of the workshops, at some of the away days, we were kind of running ourselves and think. If I knew now, then what? I know now, there's a, I mean, I would've done things very differently and I think having these skills when you are working in organizations with teams is so.

Powerful. And um, and also at a board level, I mean, I did, I've sat on a couple of different charity boards and NHS as a kind of non-exec director, and I sometimes think about how formal and quite stale those meetings can be and how just some very simple. Facilitation skills that bring a bit of kind of like structure or powerful questions or moments for people to pause and reflect could really transform those spaces.

I mean, it is a big, , focus of my work at the moment is trying to. Bring facilitation skills into organizations .

Olivia Bellas I love that that aspect of, you know, helping people navigate essentially who, who need that skill, but might not necessarily know it yet. And actually coming onto that, then coming onto those nice techniques and sort of tips, .

Let's start going into this idea of workshops and, um, facilitated spaces and how actually we end them well, because I think there's a lot,, that we can talk about in terms of how we start well, and you know, all those different activities that we can get excited about in that core middle section.

And then there's that ending part. Which I know I'm guilty of, have maybe not dedicated enough time to, so that's what I'd love us to dive into a bit more now. Yeah. What's, what's kind of bubbling for you at the moment in terms of the power of endings in workshops?

Julia Slay Hmm. Well, you are right. I mean, I have become kind of mildly obsessed with this topic and have, uh, looked, you know, looked and reflected on a lot of my own endings of workshops and trainings and events. And I'm also a regular participant. I mean, one of the ways I try and. Keep my practice fresh is by being a participant in lots of other spaces where I can be facilitated by different people.

So I've started, I've got a lot of kind of creativity and inspiration from some of those people as well. And I guess the reason I became so fixated on it is because I have had some really bad experiences of endings and they weren't catastrophic, but they were probably quite. Common. So, uh, let's go through Yes.

Some of those, yeah, I think we identify so well. I would say that they're, they're probably things that every, I don't, I know that on, on a bad day, my workshops would run like this as well. You run late, so not. You don't actually run late, but the session que, you know, it goes on and on and squeezes your kind of ending checkout time quite tightly.

Mm-hmm. So you might find yourself just with kind of three minutes to go to try and do a bunch of stuff. So I think it can feel well, I think. A bad ending for me feels quite rushed and, , not spacious, which is how I like my work to feel for people I guess relaxed in some ways.

If you have an ending that isn't closed, well, it can feel like you're kind of untethered. Like we didn't close everything that we opened. Um, there isn't time to process and reflect collectively. There might be individuals might well walk away and be reflecting there themselves, but there hasn't been a kind of collective moment, which is quite important in the way I facilitate.

And I'm really influenced by some of the neuroscience behind this, and in particular something called the peak end rule, which shows us that what people remember from events is the highs and the ends. And it is, it is. That, which I think has really got me thinking about how do I make sure that the endings are really powerful.

So I, I am kind of. Struck by if, if part of the intention of your work is to create an impact and I think the work that I do, which is often around a kind of more structured workshops and events, then the ending does really matter.

And there, I think there are several things that you can do to create a really powerful lending. And it kind of depends partly on what you're doing. The thing I all, I'm now trying much more to avoid is that kind of very rushed, three minutes at the end on Zoom, where in a panic I might say, okay, one word in the chat or one emoji and how you're feeling leaving this session.

Olivia Bellas And then it's just kind of over and which has its place, right. The checkout, those checkout words are lovely, but like you say, it's about, is it about ring? How do you ringfence that time, you know? Yeah. . And how much time would you give it? I, I guess depending on,, the session.

Julia Slay Um, yeah, that's a good question actually.

I mean, it does, I think, well, how do you ringfence it? One of the things I've started to do, two things I've started to do, I have found quite helpful. One, is to just be much more generous in my planning around how long to leave for the, for the ending. So in a one hour session, for example, online, I might angel leave 15 minutes and, and if I, if I ended up with 10, I'd be happy.

The other thing I've seen people do and I quite like doing now, is using buffer time. So in a workshop plan, deliberately planning in buffer time for either q and a extra breaks if people need them, a session to go on a bit longer or a bit more to at the end. And I don't think I've ever been left.

Too much time at the end. So my assumption is always, if there's time it can be usefully spent, right? Like it's like a helpful thing. And if you can finish five minutes early, actually they're gonna be love you. Yeah. They're gonna love you. It's like having a snow day at school or something. People are like skipping out.

Think I've got five minutes to make a cup of tea or hang up my laundry. Um, so. Yeah, I think I, I am more and more conscious about trying not to rush things or to do, I mean, one of the many activities I would do as part of a kind of ending section would be a checkout, and I think with the kind of one word in the chat, or share your reflection in the chat, it can be very effective if you don't have time to go around and hear people, but actually they don't have time to read it.

So often what I find is people are sharing these brilliant insights and we, as the facilitators are left. With them and we can read through them and go, oh, that's lovely. That's really interesting. But they're often just pinging it in and then heading out of the room. So it feels like for me, part of the intention of a checkout is that it's collective sense making and a moment of collective connection.

And if I'm doing like add something in the chat, they're not getting the benefit of that necessarily, unless they're being really diligent and staying and reading through everything.

Olivia Bellas So there's a, there's a connection part,, a social part I guess, remembering who's there, how we sort of started this very kind of human aspect.

I'm just thinking about. Um, the value of what meaning has been made, you know, kind of a learning transfer aspect I suppose that might more sit with training or is there a differentiation?

Julia Slay Well, yeah, , I do think, I feel quite strongly, and I know other facilitators will have different views on this.

I think, I feel that there is always collective learning. From almost any kind of session. And I don't, I don't think that's limited to training. I think that often we learn through hearing other people articulate things that are different to us or that validate something else, or sometimes it's naming something we hadn't that, you know, we hadn't even found the words for yet.

So there is, I think. In every, we are using the word session quite loosely here, but it could be a meeting, it could be a team away day, it could be, um, a planning session could be almost anything really. But the chance to talk about both, like the process and the content feels like an opportunity to deepen learning and to.

Yeah, I, I think to, to have a more kind of reflective space that mm-hmm. Is, is about learning, is about connection is about, I think about this sometimes with my quality improvement hat on, where I used to coach teams in the NHS kind of an hour a week in a GP practice, and we would always do a review at the end of the one hour meeting, which was just a very quick in five minutes.

What went well about the meeting and even better if, and everyone would share their, what went well and even better if, and through that we were making these micro adjustments to how we worked as a team. And how those sessions were useful for the team. So it didn't have to be a big whole scale three month review, although you could do that.

It was this kind of like slight tweaking, recalibrating, and a chance, uh, to just make things a bit a bit better. So I think I sometimes do think about it as both the process and the content. So, um, a checkout and a, and a process of reflecting can be, , both about. What did I learn today? What insights am I taking away?

What reflections am I taking away? And how did I feel this session went? What might we do differently next time? And I think there is often, for me, because I'm a coach and I know you are too, I quite like to combine reflection with action.. So that there's a reflective component and then there's a kind of, what action am I taking away, or what's my next step?

I also think there's a bunch of other logistical stuff that you do in an ending that's quite important. So there's stuff around kind of what's happening next, like where is, you know, what is the kind of next stage of this, if at all? , There's kind of sharing materials. Often I think we forget that participants we are with this is, I'm more in the space of if you're facilitating groups who aren't already in a team or organization.

They often are like, we wanna be connected and we forget that. We need to give them the space to have that conversation and figure out what they wanna do, where they wanna take their, their connections, if at all. , You might be running an evaluation. So often when we rush out endings, the evaluation or the feedback is the first thing that gets cut.

Olivia Bellas I'd say probably some of the fluff ups I've had in terms of not ending as I would've liked to, are around this kind of feedback bit, , like it feels clunky to me. It feels like we've just sort of shifted from me and us to you, or you know, suddenly there's this kind of weird moment of like, oh, right now we are looking at the session, and what was the workshop actually?

Julia Slay Yes. Yeah. And I think that's, and I think sometimes doing feedback or evaluations can feel quite well, it's like an admin task.

It's an admin, yeah. Everybody gets their phone out and they scan the QR code, or they get the piece of paper and the pen and it's a bit quiet and it does shift the energy and the mood. People might have been in this lovely, you know, reflections and connection space, and then suddenly you're like, and here's the feedback form.

And I do think it's really important to do it in the session because your data quality is so much better. , It's interesting which way round would I do it? I do a little bit of the kind of process evaluation, so what went well?

And I usually do that before the final checkout. I might, for example, if we've had a bit of a group agreement at the beginning, might revisit that and say a bit of kind of like, how did we do against this? Which bits do you think we really stuck to?

Which bits might we have slipped a bit on? What might you change for next time? So I probably would try and do that before I then did. And what's your final checkout? So I try to leave a checkout for the very, very end, and then I might just do one final. Grounding activity, and this is where people have such different skill sets.

You know, I ran a training on, I ran this first day of a trauma informed training that I'm doing with a group of psychotherapists. We ran it this week and they did a final grounding activity that was very somatic, very physical. It was a kind of body scan. That's not the kind of thing I ever really do because it's, it's not really part of my practice.

But I do sometimes you might cringe at this, I do sometimes read out like a poem or I might do something more physical, like a game. Like there's a lovely game, like a hand sink clap game. Oh yes. Which is a really lovely way to like build energy and just bring a bit of like movement back in at the end.

Uh, but again, you need time for these things. So you'll often be thinking someone, actually again, the theater person who was in this training I ran in November, she ran a fantastic activity at the end of one of the days, which was building a sound machine of facilitation. So it was like, oh, it was so cool, and it was like, for a minute I was like.

The, is the group gonna go for this? Because she was inviting people up to kind of make a motion and a noise, and there was about five seconds where I was like, Ooh, where's this gonna go? And then someone jumped in and then they all piled in and it, yeah, the energy just went from like 50 to a hundred in the space of 60 seconds, and that was all it took really.

Olivia Bellas Amazing that, this, brilliant, sound activity and the poem that you mentioned. Yeah. You know, we might put these at the start, right? Like they actually feel, like things that might be more familiar there when actually putting them at the end, or even thinking about topping and tailing, is there value in connecting that beginning and that end?


Julia Slay Well, it's interesting you say that because I, I mean, I said I've become mildly obsessed with this. One of the many things I've become a bit obsessed with is the concept of circularity and or what in improv and comedy they call reintegration.

So where you bring something back from the beginning at the end. Right. And I love this concept. I came across it, I did some training, last month in Berlin with chaos pilots around experience design, and they introduced this concept of circularity so that you do something at the beginning of an activity, at beginning of a workshop or an event, and then you bring it back at the end.

So in the training, they had this kind of little yellow. Airplane that you wrote an intention on and something just cut kind of a couple of prompts and then at the end we came back to that. So it's just a very, it's a very simple way of doing. It doesn't have to be, uh, elaborate. On um, Tuesday when, when we ran this trauma informed training, uh, one of the facilitator, one of the trainer team got people to write down anything.

They just wanted to park things that they just wanted to leave outside the space. And she gave them envelopes and paper and they put what they wanted to park in the envelope and they gave the envelope to her. And at the end of the day, she gave it all back and it was this lovely moment of like.

Actually, and, and I really have done that activity before and really experienced it as a participant, as like it mentally just shut off some of the noise. It was really powerful.

Olivia Bellas Oh, I love that. So you literally just put it in an envelopes and it's held by the facilitator during the duration and then it's. Given back and that's it. It's just as simple as that.

Julia Slay Yeah. And someone, someone was like, I don't even know if I wanna open. I'm not gonna open it now. You know, which is, you know, fair enough. Yeah. But it's be powerful. It's the physical embodiment of, of things. Right? Like it's one thing. And I do think it's also very powerful to say out loud, uh, I want to park X.

Yeah. But there is something I think even more powerful about physically writing it down, putting it aside and saying, I'm gonna come back to that at. Whatever, 5:00 PM today. And it's just, it's there and it's, you know, parked and the, and this kind of concept. I mean, that is, I think all just generally parking stuff and having a way to give people a chance to say, this is on my mind.

I need to just go with that is very powerful. But this concept of circularity I really love because I think it does do. Just help you achieve. One of the key things I think I'm looking for when I run workshops or events or training, which is uh, com kind of a completeness, a kind of, and it's not to say things have to be tidy or neat, uh, they, but it's, it's the kind of anchoring effect of bringing something full circle.

Olivia Bellas It's quite sort of reassuring, satisfying. Intentional as well, I'm just remembering I did one accidentally but I got that feeling as a facilitator.

So I had started the session and, . Had a picture up actually of just my hand, you know, with, with kind of five digits. And it was really just to remind me that I wanted in my intro to say five quick things about me and move on. And then at the end we ended up doing that debrief that I think, you know, where you draw around your hand and each finger is a of reflection prompt.

And although that was accidental, there was something that like has that sensation as well for the whole group. Participants and facilitator and I guess I, that just made me think a, another thought there is this sort of worry, fear of like ending, which might be another unraveling, you know, like how can we end well without it possibly going into a another direction.

Julia Slay Yes, and I am always aware, I mean, I can. I have heard facilitators talk about that as a fear before, and I think sometimes there are, there are certain phrases or words that I would probably avoid bringing in right at the end. Like, is there anything else you wanna talk about?

But I think there is something interesting because when you run the kind of process review reflection stuff, or you do a checkout that's more learning orientated, I think implicitly in the way we structure it, there's a boundary around it.

So even if someone says something quite revealing or challenging in terms of process feedback, like, oh, I actually didn't think we did that very well, or, I'm feeling a bit frustrated by the way this happened. , It's like the group understands we're not necessarily going into that now.

This is like insight and information, but we are not necessarily open up. So I think that there, if it's phrased and framed in the right way, it's naturally quite contained, even if stuff comes up and you think, well, that could be like a two hour conversation.

Whereas, yeah, I definitely have been guilty in the past and try not to do now. Saying to the group, and it almost sometimes can slip out. You know, you, you've done your checkout and then you kind of go, oh, is there anything else? And you're like, no, no, don't do that.

I think with teams who are connected to each other, uh, that can come up a little bit more. So someone will be maybe right at the end after they've done a checkout, oh, but we didn't talk about this. Or should we talk about that? And because they know they're gonna see each other again or later

It can just feel slightly different. , There's also something I think about acknowledging that. When we close a session, right, and we kind of end the session, but people will still be processing and reflecting sometimes for hours, days, and weeks afterwards. So their ending might not be for two weeks time. Um, and I'm curious, I've seen some facilitators try to.

Accommodate that by extending the ending and sometimes kind of sending an email a week or two afterwards saying, uh, would love to hear where your reflections landed on this. And it's almost like part accountability coach, part acknowledgement that they might have still processed quite a lot of insight post session.

, Or something I've started doing in the training I run because I had an experience of it that was really positive is, you know, you do a three day training and then. Two months later, or maybe six weeks later, have just like 45 minutes online to come back together and just do a bit of a kind of recap and review.

So acknowledging that there's lots of things that bubble up and learning and processing doesn't end when we shut the Zoom. And how can we think about our ending as a more extended version of that? Yeah, absolutely. The ending isn't necessarily just in that time that you've all spent together.

Olivia Bellas It can carry on and if you have scope to reconnect, brilliant. , That's not always the case. , Of course, and like you had said,, that next steps piece, , it will feel like it might, need to be heavily discussed with the client and where are they coming into it, , and that kind of ending, , might need to be sort of shared a little bit with, with, with others as well.

So I, I've actually got, a question and then I'm gonna ask you for one, so Uma and Sam, who were the other hosts, and I had a chat recently and we were saying, . Wouldn't it be nice to, , get some of our brilliant guests to share a question they'd like to pass on to the next guest?

So I'm gonna do that and ask you that, but first I've got a question that we wanted for you. So we're gonna start, and it's actually really connected to what we're talking about right now. , So the question we were thinking about was, , what meaning. Has been made for you, if any, as a result of the conversation we've just had now?

Julia Slay Interesting. Yeah, I think I, there is something I, um, mulling over about the very practical timing aspect and. How, how long is the right amount of time to spend on an ending? And that's like just hit home for me a little bit about, , how long would it take to do something really meaningful?

Could you do it in three minutes actually I dunno if it's quite the word meaning, but yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, we can talk about the value of closing well, how we do it, but like you say, being really clear actually about it, having that dedicated time

Olivia Bellas Okay. So what question would you like to ask our next guest who, we don't know who it is yet, so it's a kind of, it's a surprise for everyone. Is there something.

Julia Slay I, I would love to know how their practice as a facilitator has changed as they have gone along their facilitation journey. So how has their practice evolved and changed?

Olivia Bellas Love that. You know, I mean, it's almost a question I'd love to ask every facilitator I meet because I, I can see in myself the way it's totally changed over the years. Yeah. And I am very curious about that journey for others too. . And how it could, um, be fast sometimes and slow other times, you know, that sort of rate of change is just,, different every time.

Julia Slay Yeah. And how we unlearn things. I mean, I think there is some assumptions maybe that I had at the beginning of my facilitation. Career inverted comm when I first started, which I would, which have certainly changed and things I used to do that I thought were really important that now I, I hold much more lightly.

Olivia Bellas So, yeah, I'm very curious to, to listen to the episode and see what they say, what gorgeous that is. A lovely point of circularity actually. They're bringing in something from before. I think that's a lovely activity to do. Oh, well thank you so much for that question and the conversation today. Thank you. I know that's helpful for a lot of people.

Julia Slay Thank you. That was really lovely conversation.

Olivia Bellas Thanks for listening to Facilitation Stories - brought to you by IAF England and Wales. We like to collect stories, so get in touch if you have an idea - contact info is at facilitationstories.com There, you can Subscribe, follow, like the show so you get notified of new episodes.

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