Episode 35 - Give Out But Don't Give Up with Josh Rivers and Conner Habib

Hi everyone! I have been putting up episodes less frequently, but I'm hoping to change that. I just turned in the manuscript from my next book, which took over a bunch of time. But I am planning for some great conversations coming up over the next months, so stay tuned.

This is a special episode. I got to talk with two beautiful thinkers and doers, Josh Rivers and Conner Habib. Josh makes the podcast Busy Being Black, where he hosts deep, heartfelt discussions with Black artists, writers, and philosophers. I love Josh's openness in his approach, the way he forges connections with his conversation partners, and how he brings so many strands of ideas and practices together.

Conner makes Against Everyone with Conner Habib, where he also hosts discussions with thinkers, writers, and artists about political, spiritual, and creative questions. Conner digs deep into the material and always has so much wisdom to offer. Also, make sure you check out Conner's harrowing debut novel, Hawk Mountain. It hit me somewhere deep, familiar, unnerving. I loved it.

If you listen to the Breakup Theory, you may already be familiar with Conner, since we have recorded multiple times together. But if you haven't checked out Josh's or Conner's work, you are about to find a huge catalog of important topics and amazing people in conversation. Go do it now!

Josh and Conner are honestly two of my favorite people to talk with. My favored approach to thinking is in dialogue with others, not following any specific plan, but moving associatively through the meeting of our thoughts, references, and questions. I love going into something not knowing how I will come out of it, welcoming in discovery that fires me up and sets me on new paths. Both Josh and Conner are the kind of people who thrive on this approach too. This is what we do in the following conversation. It was sparked by a series Conner made on his podcast called A New Spiritual Society, inspired by one of Conner's spiritual teachers Rupdolph Steiner's idea of fourfolding. Conner follows this framework to plumb the depths of the spiritual heart of culture, politics, and the economy. You don't have to listen to this series to understand our discussion, but I highly recommend that you do. Conner specifically gears his thinking to our current situation and provides insight into how we might reframe the way we do things and the way we are situated in the world. The series is really a feat of the imagination, and also very helpful.

Josh and I came in to follow the thread of the spiritual heart, bringing in our own current projects and thinking. All of us have different passions, with some overlapping, and this makes for a wide-ranging conversation. At the end, Josh prompts us each to ask a question of the other two, which kind of works to sum up the lines of thoughts we follow.

JOSHUA: How do you care for what you love?
CONNER: If you let go of the set of capitalism vs communism (or socialism) what's left in your view of how to change the world?
SHULI: How do you open things up so that you have a new and altered view?

At the end, Josh then invites us to dance. Maybe you will find that desire in yourself as well.

I loved this conversation and I'm still energized by it, so I hope you find it inspiring too. I won't go on longer because our talk is substantial. Let me know what you think!

Before we get into the conversation, I'll do my usual rundown of ways you can support this project.

If you like this podcast, please rate it and follow it on the different apps where you listen to it. That does help boost the potential audience. Also, tell your friends too! I love hearing from people about their thoughts—but as always any questions you might want us to tackle on the show. You can leave us a message at (917) 426-6548 or using the form https://form.jotform.com/thebreakuptheory/stories. Or find me on Instagram @thebreakuptheory and DM me.

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The Breakup Theory is a member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchist podcasts, which pulls together a wide variety of shows taking an anarchist perspective on culture, politics, actions, and more.