Where Does Intelligence Live? | Michael Levin on Evolution, AI, and Platonic Space

What is intelligence, and where does it come from?

Watch Part 1 here: https://youtu.be/t6EFV2gSSmg?si=VIztbK2CM5Nwj7QA

In this episode, Michael Levin, professor of biology at Tufts University, returns to discuss his research into unconventional intelligence, the origins of cognition, and the surprising ways that biological systems solve problems. Building on his work with xenobots and anthrobots, Levin explores how new forms of intelligence can emerge in engineered biological systems and why understanding these systems may require us to rethink the relationship between evolution, learning, and agency.

We discuss Levin’s concept of "Platonic space": the idea that mathematical truths and other patterns may exist independently of the physical world. Levin proposes that biological organisms, artificial intelligence systems, and engineered machines may act as interfaces through which these patterns can take form. This raises fundamental questions about whether intelligence is something we build, something we discover, or something that becomes accessible when we create the right conditions.

Levin also describes research showing that gene regulatory networks can exhibit learning behaviors, including habituation, sensitization, and Pavlovian conditioning. These findings suggest that learning and problem-solving may occur at levels of biological organization that are often overlooked. We explore how collective systems can acquire capabilities that no individual component possesses, and how this relates to the concept of causal emergence: the idea that a system can have properties and capacities beyond those of its parts.

From xenobots and bioelectricity to hybrid biological systems and AI, we examine how engineered systems can display unexpected behaviors that challenge conventional explanations based on natural selection alone. Levin discusses the possibility of developing tools to detect, communicate with, and harness unconventional forms of intelligence, as well as the potential implications for regenerative medicine, biomedical engineering, and artificial intelligence.

Follow us for more technical interviews with the world’s greatest scientists:
Twitter: https://x.com/632nmPodcast
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/632nmpodcast?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet&igsh=ZDNlZDc0MzIxNw==
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/632nm/about/
Substack: https://632nmpodcast.substack.com/

Follow our hosts!
Michael Dubrovsky: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-dubrovsky/
Mikhail Shalaginov: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikhail-shalaginov/

Subscribe:
Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/632nm/id1751170269
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4aVH9vT5qp5UUUvQ6Uf6OR
Website: https://www.632nm.com

Timestamps:
00:00 - Intro
01:16 - Platonic Space
03:55 - Biology in the Absence of Evolution
21:11 - Extracting Knowledge from Platonic Space
37:04 - Development and Loss Functions
50:09 - Investigating Layers of Control
55:35 - Is Computer Science Misleading Our Understanding of Minds?
58:14 - Bioelectric Patterns and Drug Discovery
1:04:07 - How to Build a Predictive Developmental Model
1:13:20 - Levin’s Top Books, Thoughts on Collective Existence
1:18:00 - Questions that Keep Michael Up at Night
1:22:32 - How Does Levin Interact with AI?

#biology #evolution #computerscience #machinelearning #intelligence