Economics Roundtable: Global Elections in Focus

Investors came away from Morgan Stanley’s recent Industrials Conference with a more optimistic outlook than they expected, based on perspectives including freight transportation’s momentum and AI’s impact on the growth of data centers.----- Transcript -----Michelle Weaver: Welcome to Thoughts on the Market. I'm Michelle Weaver, Morgan Stanley Research's U.S. Thematic Strategist.Ravi Shanker: I'm Ravi Shanker, Morgan Stanley's Freight Transportation and Airlines Analyst.Chris Snyder: And I'm Chris Snyder, the U.S. Industrial Analyst.Michelle Weaver: Today, we'll talk about key themes for Morgan Stanley's recently concluded industrials conference in Laguna Beach.It's Thursday, September 19th at 10am in New York.Last week, we were all out in Laguna Beach at the industrials conference. There were about 500 different industrials investors, along with 156 corporates, which gave us a pretty comprehensive read on what's going on in the industrial sector.Investor sentiment around industrials was pretty poor heading into the conference, and the overall tone of management, though, seemed better than feared in presentations.Chris, your coverage includes companies with exposure to a wide range of end markets. What did you learn about the cycle from your discussions with company management?Chris Snyder: Yeah, I think you categorized it well: consistent, largely unchanged, but better than feared. Morgan Stanley did a poll ahead of the conference. And only 5 percent of investors thought that the conference would be bullish for industrial risk sentiment. Coming out of the conference, 60 percent of industrial investors are bullish on risk sentiment into the end of the year. So, I think it kind of shows that sentiment was in a very bad place and ‘better than feared’ is the right way to categorize it.We've generally been surprised at the lack of optimism around the industrial cycle in the market. The industrial economy has been in contraction for almost two years now, and it seems like we're on the verge of a rate cut cycle, which has historically been a tailwind for the cycle.You know, in our coverage, business is driven by a combination of investments and then production of goods; and the companies we’re seeing real bifurcation on that. On the investment side -- and that's things like data center, new manufacturing facilities with all the US reshoring momentum -- that business remains strong. And on the production side of the house, that business remains soft. And that's generally in line with our call. We prefer CapEx exposure, particularly those that are tied into energy efficiency.Michelle Weaver: Great. That's really positive to hear that the investment side is still doing well. Ravi, your freight coverage is very macro as well -- in that the freight companies move all the stuff that other companies are making. How does demand from shippers look? And what are freight companies saying about the cycle?Ravi Shanker: Yeah, from a freight transportation perspective, I guess, no news was good news out in Laguna; largely because we have already started to see an improvement in the freight cycle, at the end of 1Q going into 2Q. And I think the market was just waiting to see if that would sustain through 3Q. The data has been supportive so far, and the good news was most of the trucking companies did validate the fact that we have seen a continuation of seasonality from 2Q into 3Q.And looking forward, they're also anticipating a fairly decent peak season, probably the most robust peak season we have had in two or three years. And I use the word robust on a relative basis because it's not going to be the greatest peak season ever. But certainly, better than we've had the last couple of years. But that momentum should continue into 2025.So, nobody really was high fiving out there. But certainly, noted the fact that we are seeing a continued improvement in the cycle; and that momentum should continue into next year.Michelle Weaver: One of Morgan Stanley Research's three key themes for the year is technology, diffusion and AI; and this theme came up repeatedly throughout the conference.Chris, some of your companies have significant exposure to data centers, which have seen a huge boost in demand from AI. What does the growth opportunity look like for Multi's names with exposure to data centers?Chris Snyder: Yeah, data center is a growth opportunity for my industrials’ coverage. And they primarily are driven by the investment side. How much data centers are we building? And they sell a lot of the equipment that goes into the data centers. And what we're seeing now is that there's a huge focus on energy efficiency within the data center. You know, obviously it helps improve their cost profile, but also as there's growing concerns around load growth and electricity allotment.And what that's doing is it's driving demand towards the high end of the spectrum, which is where our big public companies compete. You know, they're the ones that are always spending R&D and innovating and driving energy efficiency for the customer. So, we think there's a mix up opportunity behind it.In terms of growth rates, you know, most of the companies are talking to about 15 percent kind of plus as the growth rate going forward or where they are exposed. And the conference brought, you know, really positive updates. There was no talk of slowdown. And generally, it sounds like momentum remains firm and growth will continue.Michelle, what were some of the other ways companies discussed AI or how they're leveraging the technology?Michelle Weaver: Yeah. So, when I think about how companies have been adopting AI so far, not just within industrials, but within the broader market, it's largely been about things that are plug and play solutions; something like taking a chat bot, putting that on your website, and then you don't need as many customer service representatives.So, when I'm at these kind of events, I always like to listen for more unique or differentiated ways of adopting AI. And I heard about a really interesting case from a company that holds about half of the global market for luxury seating. Processing leather is a super important part of manufacturing seats and has typically been really labor intensive and skilled labor at that. But this company is using AI to scan cow hides to determine what the optimal use for them is, and then inventory them.Before that, a worker had to individually mark the leather for imperfections and then determine how to cut around that. So, I thought that was a pretty interesting use of AI.But now I want to turn over to the consumer exposed pockets of industrials. Discretionary spending has been slowing as multiple years of high prices have been weighing on consumers. But overall, I thought the commentary around the consumer at the conference seemed pretty mixed, and we saw a big divide between the high-end and low-end consumers.Ravi, what did you hear from the airlines around travel demand?Ravi Shanker: Unlike the transportation side where what we heard was fairly consistent with expectations, I think things were much better than expected on the airline side largely because the airlines came out and validated the fact that demand continues to remain very robust -- pretty much across the board. But as you mentioned, definitely at the high end, the premium traveler continues to travel.International is rebounding post Olympics. Corporate is normalizing as well, and some of the low-cost carriers did mention that they were seeing some weakness on the low-end consumer side. Although it was unclear to them if that was actual demand weakness or a function of too much capacity in the marketplace.But they did come out and validate that demand continues to remain very robust; and with capacity continuing to come out of the marketplace and be more balanced with demand, you have seen pricing inflect positive for all the airlines for the first time in several quarters. So definitely, a pretty supportive backdrop for airline demand. And that is going to show up in airline numbers in the third and fourth quarters as well, we think.Michelle Weaver: As someone who's been in the airports a lot recently, I can definitely feel that demand has held up well. Chris, some of your companies also sell consumer products. What does consumer demand look like in your space?Chris Snyder: I would say stable, but at soft levels. And I think a lot of the tailwinds that Ravi is seeing on the service side of the house in airlines is actually coming at the expense of my companies who sell consumer goods. You know, if you look at the consumer wallet share, service mix has not gotten back to the levels that we saw in 2019 and we think that will remain a headwind for goods purchasing going forward.Michelle Weaver: Ravi, Chris, thank you for taking the time to talk.Ravi Shanker: Thanks so much for having me.Chris Snyder: Thank you.Michelle Weaver: And to our listeners, thanks for tuning in. If you enjoy the show, please leave us a review wherever you listen to podcasts and share Thoughts on the Market with a friend or colleague today.

19 Sep 20248min

While the electoral impact of last week’s US presidential debate is unclear, our Global Head of Fixed Income and Thematic Research offers two guiding principles to navigate the markets during the election cycle.----- Transcript -----Welcome to Thoughts on the Market. I'm Michael Zezas, Morgan Stanley's Global Head of Fixed Income and Thematic Research. Along with my colleagues bringing you a variety of perspectives, today I'll be talking about takeaways from the US presidential campaign debate. It's Wednesday, September 18th at 10:30am in New York. Last week, Vice President Harris and Former President Trump met in Philadelphia for debate. Investor interest was high, and understandably so. As our Chief Economist Seth Carpenter has previously highlighted in his research, visibility remains low when it comes to the outlook for the US in 2025. That’s because the election could put the country on policy paths that take economic growth in different directions. And of course, the last presidential debate in June led to President Biden’s withdrawal, changing the race dramatically. So, any election-related event that could provide new information about the probability of different outcomes and the resulting policies is worth watching. But, as investors well know from tracking data releases, earnings, Fedspeak, and more, potential catalysts often remain just that – potential. For the moment, we’re putting last week’s debate in that category. Take its impact on outcome probabilities. It could move polls, but perhaps not enough for investors to view one candidate as the clear favorite. For weeks, the polls have been signaling an extremely tight race, with only a small pool of undecided voters. While debates in past campaigns have modestly strengthened a candidate’s standing in the polls, in this race any lead would likely remain within the margin of error. On policy, again we don’t think the debate taught us anything new. Candidates typically use these widely watched events to influence voters’ perceptions. The details of policies and their impact tend to take a back seat to assertions of principles and critiques of their opponents. This is what we saw last week. So if the debate provided little new information about the impact of the election on markets, what guidance can we offer? Here again we repeat two of our guiding principles for this election cycle. First, between now and Election Day, expect the economic cycle to drive markets. The high level of uncertainty and the lack of precedent for market behavior in the run-up to past elections suggest sticking to the cross-asset playbook in our mid-year outlook. In general, we prefer bonds to equities. While our economists continue to expect the US to avoid a recession, growth is slowing. That bodes better for bonds, where yields may track lower as the Fed eases, as opposed to equities, where earnings may be challenged as growth slows. Second, lean into market moves that election outcomes could accelerate. For several months, Matt Hornbach and our interest rate strategy team have been calling for a steeper yield curve, driven by lower yields in shorter-maturity bonds. They have been guided by our economists’ steadfast view that the Fed would start cutting rates this year as inflation eases. We doubt that policies in Democratic win scenarios would change this trend, and a Republican win could accelerate it in the near term, as higher tariffs would imply pressure on growth and possibly further Fed dovishness. Pricing that path could steepen the yield curve further. And of course, there’s still several weeks before the election to get smart on the economic and market impacts of a range of election outcomes. We’ll keep you updated here. Thanks for listening. If you enjoy the podcast, please leave us a review wherever you listen and share Thoughts on the Market with a friend or colleague today.

18 Sep 20243min

Our US Public Policy Strategist explains the potential impact of the upcoming presidential election on the healthcare sector, including whether the outcome is likely to drive a major policy shift.----- Transcript -----Welcome to Thoughts on the Market. I’m Ariana Salvatore, Morgan Stanley’s US Public Policy Strategist. Along with my colleagues bringing you a variety of perspectives, today I’ll focus on what the US election means for healthcare. It’s Tuesday, September 17th at 10am in New York. Around elections what we tend to see is voters rank healthcare pretty high among their priority list. And for that reason it’s not surprising that it generates significant debate as well as investor concern – about everything from drug pricing to potential sweeping reforms. We think that the 2024 election is unlikely to transform the US healthcare system. But there are still policies to watch that could change depending on the outcome. We outlined these in a recent note led by our equity research colleagues Erin Wright and Terence Flynn. To start, we think bipartisan policies should continue uninterrupted, regardless of the election outcome. Certain regulations requiring drug price and procedural transparency, for example, which affect hospitals and health plans, are unlikely to change if there is a shift of power next year. We’ve seen some regulations from the Trump era kept in place by the Biden administration; and similarly during the former president’s term there were attempts at bipartisan legislation to modify the Pharmacy Benefit Management model. There are some healthcare policies that could be changed through the tax code, including the extension of the COVID-era ACA subsidies. In President Biden’s fiscal year [20]25 budget request, he called for an extension of those enhanced subsidies; and Vice President Kamala Harris has proposed a similar measure. As we’ve said before on this podcast, we think tax policy will feature heavily in the next Congress as lawmakers contend with the expiring Tax Cuts and Jobs Act. So many of these policies could come into the fold in negotiations. Aside from these smaller potential policy changes, we think material differences to the healthcare system as we know it right now are a lower probability outcome. That’s because the creation of a new system - like Medicare for All or a Public Option - would require unified Democratic control of Congress, as well as party unanimity on these topics. Right now we see a dispersion among Democrats in terms of their views on this topic, and the presence of other more motivating issues for voters; mean[ing] that an overhaul of the current system is probably less likely. Similarly, in a Republican sweep scenario, we don't expect a successful repeal of the Affordable Care Act as was attempted in Trump’s first administration. The makeup of Congress certainly is important, but there are some actions that the President can leverage unilaterally to affect policy here. For example, former President Trump issued several executive orders addressing transparency and the PBM model. If we look at some key industries within Healthcare, our equity colleagues think Managed Care is well positioned heading into this relatively more benign election cycle. Businesses and investors are focusing on candidates' approaches to the Medicare Advantage program and the ACA Exchange, which has subsidies set to expire at the end of 2025. Relative to prior elections, Biopharma should see a lower level of uncertainty from a policy perspective given that the Inflation Reduction Act, or the IRA, in 2022 included meaningful drug pricing provisions. We also think a full-scale repeal of the IRA is unlikely, even in a Republican sweep scenario. So, expect some policy continuity there. Within Biotech, the path to rate cuts is likely a more significant driver of near-term Small and Mid-Cap sentiment rather than the 2024 election cycle. Our colleagues think that investors should keep an eye on two election-related factors that could possibly impact Biotech including potential changes to the IRA that may impact the sector and changes at the FTC, or the Federal Trade Commission, that could make the M&A environment more challenging. As always, we will continue to keep you abreast of new developments as the election gets closer. Thanks for listening. If you enjoy the show, please leave us a review wherever you listen to podcasts and share Thoughts on the Market with a friend or colleague today.

17 Sep 20244min

With the Federal Reserve poised to make its long-awaited rate cut this week, our CIO and Chief US Equity Strategist tells us why investors have pivoted their concerns from high inflation to slowing growth. ----- Transcript -----Welcome to Thoughts on the Market. I'm Mike Wilson, Morgan Stanley’s CIO and Chief US Equity Strategist. Along with my colleagues bringing you a variety of perspectives, today I'll be talking about what to expect as the Fed likely begins its long-awaited rate cutting cycle this week. It's Monday, Sept 16th at 10:30am in New York.So let’s get after it.After nearly 12 months of great anticipation, the Fed is very likely to start its rate cutting cycle this week. The old adage that it is often easier to travel than arrive may apply as markets appear to have priced an aggressive Fed cutting cycle into the middle of next year while assuming a soft-landing outcome for the economy.More specifically, the two-year US Treasury yield is now 180 basis points below the Fed Funds Rate which is in line with the widest spread in 40 years, a level associated with a hard landing. This is the bond market's way of messaging to the Fed that they are late in getting started with rate cuts. This doesn't mean the Fed can't get ahead of it, but they may need to move faster to keep investors' hopes alive.As a result, the odds of a 50 basis point cut have increased over the past week but it’s still well below a certainty. This is unusual going into an FOMC meeting and is setting markets up for a greater surprise either way. How the markets react to what the Fed does this week will have an even greater influence on investor sentiment than usual, in my view. Ideally, rates should rise at both the front and back end if the bond market likes the Fed’s actions because it signals they aren’t as far behind in trying to orchestrate a soft landing. Conversely, a fall in rates will be a vote of lower confidence. On the other side of the ledger, we have the equity market which appears to be highly convicted that the Fed has already secured the soft landing, at least at the index level. Today, the S&P 500 trades at 21x forward earnings, which also assumes a healthy path of 10 percent earnings growth in 2024 and 15 percent growth in 2025. Under the surface, the market has skewed much more defensively as it worries more about growth and less about high inflation. I have commented extensively in this podcast about this shift that started in April and why we have been persistently recommending defensive quality for months. With the significant outperformance of defensive sectors since April, the internals of the equity market may not be betting on a soft landing and reacceleration in growth as the S&P 500 index suggests.Keep in mind that the S&P 500 is a defensive, high-quality index of stocks and so it typically holds up better than most stocks as growth slows in a late cycle environment like today. These growth concerns will likely persist unless the data turn around, irrespective of what the Fed does this week.In the 11 Fed rate cutting cycles since 1973, eight were associated with recessions while only three were not. The performance over the following year was very mixed with half negative and half positive with a very wide but equal skew. Specifically, the average performance over the 12 months following the start of a Fed rate cutting cycle is 3.5 percent – or about half of the longer-term average returns. The best 12-month returns were 33 percent, while the worst was a negative 31 percent. Bottom line, it’s generally a toss-up at the index level. The analysis around style and sectors is clearer. Value tends to outperform growth into the first cut and underperform growth thereafter. Defensives tend to outperform cyclicals both before and after the cut. Large caps also tend to outperform small caps both before and after the first rate cut. These last two factor dynamics are supportive of our defensive and large cap bias as Fed cuts often come in a later cycle environment. It’s also why we are sticking with it. Thanks for listening. If you enjoy the podcast, leave us a review wherever you listen, and share Thoughts on the Market with a friend or colleague today.

16 Sep 20244min

After sending global markets in a brief tailspin in early August, the Bank of Japan is once again the center of attention. Our Global Chief Economist and Chief Asia Economist discuss the central bank’s next steps to help ease volatility and inflation.----- Transcript -----Seth Carpenter: Welcome to Thoughts on the Market. I'm Seth Carpenter, Morgan Stanley's Global Chief Economist.Chetan Ahya: And I'm Chetan Ahya, Chief Asia Economist.Seth Carpenter: And on today's episode, Chetan and I are going to be discussing the Bank of Japan and the role it has been playing in recent market turmoil.It's Friday, September 13th at 12.30pm in New York.Chetan Ahya: And it's 5.30pm in London.Seth Carpenter: Financial markets have been going back and forth for the past month or so, and a lot of what's been driving the market movements have been evolving expectations of what's going on at central banks. And right at the center of it has been the Bank of Japan, especially going back to their meeting at the very end of July.So, Chetan, maybe you can just level set us about where things stand with the Bank of Japan right now? And how they've been communicating with markets?Chetan Ahya: Well, I think what happened, Seth, is that Bank of Japan (BoJ) saw that there was a significant progress in inflation and wage growth dynamic. And with that they went out and told the markets that they wanted to start now increasing rate hikes. And at the same time, the end was weakening.And to ensure that they kind of convey to the markets that they want to be now taking rates higher, the governor of the central bank came out and indicated that they are far away from neutral.Now while that was having the desired effect of bringing the yen down, i.e. appreciated. But at the same time, it caused a significant volatility in the equity markets and make it more challenging for the BoJ.Seth Carpenter: Okay, so I get that. But I would say the market knew for a long time that the Bank of Japan would be hiking. We've had that in our forecast for a while. So, do you think that Governor Ueda really meant to be quite so aggressive? That meeting and his comments subsequently really were part of the contribution to all of this market turmoil that we saw in August. So, do you think he meant to be so aggressive?Chetan Ahya: Well, not really. I think that's the reason why what we saw is that a few days later, when the deputy governor Uchida was supposed to speak, he tried to walk back that hawkishness of the governor. And what was very interesting is that the deputy governor came out and indicated that they do care for financial conditions. And if the financial conditions move a lot, it will have an impact on growth and inflation; and therefore, conduct of monetary policy.In that sense, they conveyed the endogeneity of financial conditions and their reaction function. So, I think since that point of time, the markets have had a little bit of reprieve that BoJ will not take up successive rate hikes, ignoring what happens to the financial conditions.Seth Carpenter: But this does feel a little bit like some back and forth, and we've seen in the market that the yen is getting a little bit whipsawed; so the Bank of Japan wants to hike, and markets react strongly. And then the Bank of Japan comes out and says, ‘No, no, no, we're not going to hike that much,’ and markets relax a little bit. But maybe that relaxation allows them to hike more.It kind of reminds me, I have to say, of the 2014 to 2015 period when the Federal Reserve was getting ready to raise interest rates for the first time off of the zero lower bound after the financial crisis. And, you know, markets reacted strongly -- when then chair Yellen started talking about hiking and because of the tightening of financial conditions, the Fed backed down.But then because markets relaxed, the Fed started talking about hiking again. Do you think that's an apt comparison for what's going on now?Chetan Ahya: Absolutely, Seth. I think it is exactly something similar that is going on with Bank of Japan.Seth Carpenter: So, I guess the question then becomes, what happens next? We know with the Fed, they eventually did hike rates at the end of 2015. What do you think we're in line for with the Bank of Japan, and is it likely to be a bumpy ride in the future like it has been over the past couple months?Chetan Ahya: Well, so I think as far as the market’s volatility is concerned, we do think that the fact that the BoJ has come out and indicated that their reaction function is such that they do care about financial conditions. Hopefully we should not see the same kind of volatility that we saw at the start of the month of August.But as far as the next steps are concerned, we do see BoJ taking up one more rate hike in January 2025. And there is a risk that they might take up that rate hike in December.But the reason why we think that they will be able to take up one more rate hike is the fact that there is continued progress on wage growth and inflation; and wage growth is the most important variable that BoJ is tracking.We just got the last month's wage growth number. It has risen up to 3 percent. And going forward, we think that as the BoJ gets comfort that next year's wage negotiations are also heading in the right direction, they will be able to take one more rate hike in January 2025.Well, Seth, I think, you know, when we are talking about this volatility that we saw in the financial markets and particularly yen, the other side of this story is what the Fed has to do, and what is Fed indicating in terms of its policy path. And we saw that, after the nonfarm payrolls data, Governor Waller was indicating that the Fed could consider front-loading its rate cuts. What are your thoughts on that?Seth Carpenter: So, we do think the Fed's getting ready to start cutting rates. Our baseline is that they move at 25 increments per meeting, from now through the middle of next year. I would take Governor Waller's comments though about front-loading cuts -- which I took to mean, you know, the possibility of 50 basis point rate moves -- very much in context, and with a grain of salt.When he gave that speech, I think what he was trying to do, and I think the last paragraph of that speech really bears it out. He was saying there's a lot of uncertainty here. He said, if the data suggests that they need to front load rates, then he would advocate for it. But he also said that, if the data implied that they need to cut at consecutive meetings, he'd be in favor of that as well. So, he was saying that the data are going to be the thing that drives the policy decisions.But thanks for asking that question. And thanks to the listeners. If you enjoy this podcast, please leave us a review wherever you listen and share Thoughts on the Market with a friend or a colleague today.

13 Sep 20246min

Our Head of Corporate Credit Research looks at the Fed’s approach to rate cuts, seasonal trends and the US election to explain why the next month represents a crucial window for credit’s future. ----- Transcript -----Welcome to Thoughts on the Market. I'm Andrew Sheets, head of Corporate Credit Research at Morgan Stanley. Along with my colleagues bringing you a variety of perspectives, today I'll discuss why the next month is a critical window for credit.It's Thursday, September 12th at 9am in New York. We’ve liked corporate credit as an asset class this year and think the outlook over the next 6-12 months remains promising. At a high level, credit likes moderation, and that continues to be exactly what Morgan Stanley’s economists are forecasting; with moderate growth, moderate inflation, and moderating policy in the US and Europe. Meanwhile, at the ground level, corporate balance sheets are in good shape, and demand for fixed income remains strong, dynamics that we think are unlikely to shift quickly. But this good credit story is now facing a critical window. As we’ve discussed recently on this program, the Fed has taken a risk with monetary policy, continuing to keep interest rates elevated despite increasing indications that they should be lower. U.S. inflation has been coming down rapidly, to the point where the market now thinks the rate of inflation over the next two years will be below what the Fed is targeting. The labor market is slowing, and government bond markets are now assuming that the Fed will have to make much more significant adjustments to policy. And so, this becomes a race. If the economic data can hold up for the next few months, while the Fed does make those first gradual rate cuts, it will help reassure markets that monetary policy is reasonable and in-line with the underlying economy. But if the data weakens more now, the market is vulnerable. Monetary policy works with a lag, meaning rate cuts are not going to help anytime soon. And so, it becomes easier for the market to worry that growth is slowing too much, and that the cavalry of rate cuts will be too late to arrive. The second immediate challenge is so-called seasonality. Over almost a century, September has seen significantly weaker performance relative to any other month. Seasonality always has an element of mysticism to it, but in terms of specific reasons why markets tend to struggle around this time of year, we’d point to two factors. First, after a summer lull, you tend to see a lot of issuance, including corporate bonds issuance. And for Equities, September often sees more negative earnings revisions, as companies aim to bring full-year estimates in line with reality. Lots of supply and weaker earnings revisions are often a tough combination. A final element of this critical window is the approaching US election. This appears to be an extremely close race between candidates with very different policy priorities. If investors get more nervous that monetary policy is mis-calibrated, or seasonality is unhelpful, the approaching election provides yet another reason for investors to hold back. All of this is why we think the next month is a critical window for credit, and why we’d exercise a little bit more caution than we have so far this year. But we also think any weakness is going to be temporary. By early November, the US election will be over, and we think growth will be holding up, inflation will keep coming down, and interest rate cuts will be well underway. And while September is historically a bad month for stocks and credit, late-October onward is a different and much better story. Any near-term softness could still give way to a stronger finish to the year. Thanks for listening. If you enjoy the show, leave us a review wherever you listen and share Thoughts on the Market with a friend or colleague today.

12 Sep 20243min

Office buildings continue to struggle in the post-pandemic era, but our Chief Fixed Income Strategist notes that other properties have turned a corner. ----- Transcript -----Welcome to Thoughts on the Market. I am Vishy Tirupattur, Morgan Stanley’s Chief Fixed Income Strategist. Along with my colleagues bringing you a variety of perspectives, today I'll be talking about how the challenges facing the US commercial real estate markets have evolved and talk about where they are headed next.It's Wednesday, Sep 11th at 10 am in New York.Over the last year and half, the challenges of commercial real estate, or CRE in short, have been periodically in the spotlight. The last time we discussed this issue here was in the first quarter of this year. That was in the aftermath of loan losses announced by a regional bank that primarily focused on rent-stabilized multifamily and CRE lending in the New York metropolitan area. At the same time, lenders and investors in Japan, Germany and Canada also reported sizable credit losses and write-down related to US commercial real estate.At that time, we had said that CRE issues should be scrutinized through the lenses of lenders and property types; and that saw meaningful challenges in both – in particular, regional banks as lenders and office as a property type.Rolling the calendar forward, where do things stand now?Focusing on the lenders first, there is some good news. While regional bank challenges from their CRE exposures have not gone away, they are not getting any worse. That means incremental reserves for CRE losses have been below what we had feared. Our economists’ expectations of Fed’s rate cuts on the back of their soft-landing thesis, gives us the conviction that lower rates should be an incremental benefit from a credit quality perspective for banks because it alleviates pressure on debt service coverage ratios for borrowers. Lower rates also give banks more room to work with their borrowers for longer by providing extensions. For banks, this means while CRE net charge-offs could rise in the near term, they are likely to stabilize in 2025.In other words, even though the fundamental deterioration in terms of the level of delinquencies and losses may be ahead, the rate of change seems to have clearly turned. In that sense, as long as the rate cuts that we anticipate materialize, the worst of the CRE issues for regional banks may now be behind us.From the lens of property types, it is important not to paint all property types with the same brushstroke of negativity. Office lots remain the pain point. Looking at the payoff rates in CMBS pools gives us a granular look at the performance across different property types.Overall, 76 per cent of the CRE loans that matured over the past 12 months paid off, which is a pretty healthy rate. However, in office loans, the payoff rate was just 43 per cent. Other property types were clearly much better. For example, 100 per cent of industrial property loans, 96 per cent of multi-family loans, 89 per cent of hotel loans that matured in the last 12 months paid off. The payoff rates in retail property loans were a bit lower but still pretty healthy at 76 per cent, in clear contrast to office properties. Delinquency rates across property types also show a similar trend with office loans driving the lion’s share of the overall increase in delinquencies.In short, the secular headwinds facing the office market have not dissipated. Office property valuations, leasing arrangements and financing structures must adjust to the post-pandemic realities of office work. While this shift has begun, more is needed. So, there is really no quick resolution for these challenges which we think are likely to persist. This is especially true in central business district offices that require significant capex for upgrades or repurposing for use as residential housing.Overall, we stick to our contention that commercial real estate risks present a persistent challenge but are unlikely to become systemic for the economy. Thanks for listening. If you enjoy the podcast, please leave us a review wherever you listen to this and share Thoughts on the Market with a friend or colleague today.

11 Sep 20244min

With the generational shift in the US housing market underway, our analysts discuss the impact this trend will have on residential real estate investing.----- Transcript -----Ron Kamdem: Welcome to Thoughts on the Market. I'm Ron Kamdem, head of Commercial Real Estate Research and the US Real Estate Investment Trust team within Morgan Stanley Research.Lauren Hochfelder: And I'm Lauren Hochfelder, Co-Chief Executive Officer of Morgan Stanley Real Estate Investing, the global private real estate investment arm of the firm.Ron Kamdem: And on this special episode of Thoughts on the Market, we’ll discuss the tangible impact of shifting demographics on the residential real estate investing space.It's Tuesday, September 10th at 10 am in New York.So, Lauren, for several years now, we've been hearing about millennials overtaking the baby boomers. As a reminder, millennials are people between the age of 28 and 43. So someone like me. And there’s about 72 million millennials right now. Baby boomers are around 59 to 78; and there's about 69 million at the moment. This demographic shift will have a profound impact on all sectors of the economy, including residential housing. So, let's lay the foundation first. What are the current needs of baby boomers and millennials when it comes to their homes?Lauren Hochfelder: Yeah, this is such an interesting moment, Ron, because as you say, their needs are shifting. Over the last 15 years, what have millennials wanted? They have wanted multifamily. They have wanted rental apartment units. And by the way, they've wanted, generally speaking, small ones in cities.Ron Kamdem: Yup.Boomers? They have been disproportionately residing in single family homes that they own, and that they've owned for a long time. But here we are, as millennials reach peak household formation years and boomers approach their 80-year-old mark. There's a real shift.We have millennials growing up and growing out, and boomers growing older. And that means millennials need more space; boomers need more services. Housing with increased care options. And that really leads to three things.One, pockets of oversupply of multifamily. Developers develop to the rearview mirror; and we have way too much of what they wanted yesterday and too little of what they wanted to what they want tomorrow. The second is increased demand for single family rental in more suburban locations to meet the needs of those millennials. And the third is increased demand for senior housing for the boomers.Ron Kamdem: Excellent. So, when we look at the next five to ten years, let's consider each of these generations. Demand for senior housing is increasing significantly. Where are we in this process, and what's your expectation for the next decade?Lauren Hochfelder: Look, we think this is the golden age for senior housing. The demand wave is upon us, supply is way down. And by the way, labor costs, which have been a real headwind, are finally abating. New construction of senior housing has basically fallen off a cliff. It is down 75 per cent from its peak; if you look at the first quarter of this year, it's basically at GFC levels. And third, the senior wealth effect. Not only do seniors need this product, they can afford it.They have been in those homes, they've owned those homes for a very long time, and over that period, home prices have appreciated. So, seniors are in a position where they can really afford to move into these senior living facilities.Ron Kamdem: And what about millennials? As they get older, how are their housing needs evolving?Lauren Hochfelder: I'd say three things. It's they need more space. So single family rental versus multifamily. The second is migratory shifts, right? It's no longer -- I have to live in San Francisco or New York. You're seeing real growth in the southeast and Texas. And the third is this preference to rent. Now, a lot of that's affordability driven.Ron Kamdem: Right.Lauren Hochfelder: But I think there's also mobility. There's just general preference. I mean, this is a generation that doesn't own a landline, right? So, they want to rent. They don't want to buy.Ron Kamdem: So, given these trends as an actual real estate investor, how do you view the supply and demand dynamics within residential investing? And where do you see the biggest opportunities?Lauren Hochfelder: Look, I think housing in general is attractive to invest in. There's simply too little of it. But you really can't paint a broad brush. You need to invest in the type of housing with the best outlook. And you and I can sit here and debate what's going to happen with interest rates. But what is not debatable is that these two large age groups are going to drive demand disproportionately.And so rather than speculating on interest rates, let's calculate the number of people in these generations. And so that means that we want to invest in single family. We want to invest in seniors housing, and we want to invest in the markets where these groups want to live.So, let's turn it around. We've been talking about this growing senior population and, you know, we and my side of the business. We've been investing in a lot of senior housing communities. But how does this affect your world? You cover the entire US public real estate investment trust universe. How are you thinking about these things?Ron Kamdem: So, our investors are really focused on secular trends that they can invest over a long period of time. And there's really two that I would like to call out. So, the first is the rise of senior housing communities.As you mentioned earlier, if you think about the US population, the population that's 65 and over is really the addressable market. And we do expect that number to rise to about 21 per cent of the population or 71 million people.Lauren Hochfelder: So, think about one in four people being eligible or appropriate for senior housing. It's amazing.Ron Kamdem: That’s an incredible demand function.Now, the second piece of it is historically these seniors have actually shied away from senior housing. So, the first sort of trend and inflection point that I want to call out is we do think there's an opportunity for penetration race -- not only to flatten out, but to start increasing. And that's driven exactly by your earlier comment, which is affordability. Remember, about 75 per cent of seniors actually own their own homes, and they've seen a significant amount of price appreciation. Since 2010, their home prices have gone up 80 per cent, which is about two times the rate of inflation.Second investable trend is the move of outpatient services outside of the hospital setting. So, if you go back to the eighties, only about 16 per cent of services were being done outside of the hospital. In 2020, that number was close to 68 per cent and we think that's going to keep rising. The reason being because of surgical advances, there's a lot of projects that can be done outside of the hospital. Whether it's, you know, knee replacements, trigger finger surgery, cataract surgeries, and so forth. In addition to that, the expansion of Medicare coverage has allowed for reimbursement of these services, again, outside of the hospital.So, we think these are trends that are in place that should continue over the next sort of decade and drive more demand to the healthcare real estate space.Lauren Hochfelder: So, what should we be nervous about? What concerns you?Ron Kamdem: Look, I think on the senior housing side, there's always two factors that we focus on. So, the first is labor. This remains a very labor-intensive industry. But in the US, historically, people coming out of college, they're not necessarily going into the health care space. So, there's been moments of labor shortages. This happened exactly after the pandemic. Luckily, today, the labor situation has abated and you're seeing sort of labor costs back to inflationary type levels.The second piece of it is just the age of the facilities. Now, keep in mind, there's still a lot of facilities with the average age of about 41, right. And everybody has in the back of their mind, these older facilities with older carpets and so forth. So, when we're thinking about investing in the space, we're always focused on the newer assets, the better quality that are going to provide a better experience for the tenant.Lauren Hochfelder: So, given these shifts, what segments of your world are poised to benefit the most?Ron Kamdem: The real estate public market, there's about 160 REITs across 16 different subsectors; and the senior housing subsector is by far the most compelling in our minds. If you think about the REIT market, the average sort of earnings growth is 3 to 4 per cent. However, the senior housing sector, we think you can get 10 per cent or more growth over the next three to five years. The reason being when the pandemic hit, this was an industry that saw occupancy go from 90 per cent to 75 per cent.There was a moment in time where people thought you'd never put any seniors in the facility again. Well, the exact opposite has happened, and now we're seeing occupancy gains of about 300 basis points of about 3 per cent every year. On top of some pricing power, call it 5, 6 or 7 per cent. So, we're looking at a sector where we think organically you can grow sort of high single digits. With a little bit of operating leverage, you can get to a total earning growth of double digits, which is very compelling relative to the rest of the REIT market.Lauren Hochfelder: Let's go back to your generation, as you said. Let's go back to the millennials. How do those shifting needs affect which part of the universe you would invest in?Ron Kamdem: One of the things that I think every real estate owner’s thinking about is how to integrate their platform so that they're more millennial friendly. They're going online. They're using their phones, and I think we're seeing a much bigger investment in marketing dollars on a web presence, on a web platform, and on a mobile friendly app, certainly to be able to interface with that millennial and help with customer acquisitions.So, I would say that's probably the biggest difference -- is how you target that population in a different way than you did historically.Lauren Hochfelder: Yeah, I mean we all shop online, shouldn't we get our homes online, right?Ron Kamdem: That's right. All right, Lauren. Well, thanks for taking the time to talk.Lauren Hochfelder: Yeah, this been great, Ron. I always enjoy us catching up.Ron Kamdem: As a reminder, if you enjoy Thoughts on the Market, please take a moment to rate and review us wherever you listen. It helps more people to find the show.*****Lauren Hochfelder is not a member of Morgan Stanley’s Research department. Unless otherwise indicated, her views are her own and may differ from the views of the Morgan Stanley Research department and from the views of others within Morgan Stanley.

10 Sep 202410min