Ep. 181: Kristen Donnelly - The Never-Ending Journey of DE&I

Connect with Kristen:
http://bit.ly/ARDigest
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kristendonnellyphd/

Full Episode Transcript:
Neha: (00:05)
Welcome back to Count Me In, IMA's podcast about all things affecting the accounting and finance world. This is your host Neha Lagoo Ratnakar, and we are now starting episode 181 of our series. Today's guest is Dr. Kristen Donnelly. Kristen is a celebrated TEDx speaker and founder, and one of The Good Doctors of Abbey Research. Join Kristen and my co-host Adam, as they talk about her work as an empathy educator and how companies and leaders can become more inclusive. So keep listening as a handover with the mic to Adam.

Adam: (00:47)
So Kristen, as we get started, I think it would be best for us to define some terms that our listeners may think they understand, but you know, they really may not. Things like diversity, oppression, equality, equity, tolerance, and privilege. These are all terms that we hear in the media a lot. And I think people, they think they understand what they mean, but maybe you can help us by level setting.

Kristen: (01:08)
I would love to break that down. So in order to do that though, allow me to kind of set the stage a little bit if you wouldn't mind. Of course. So one of the first things to understand is that the world is set up for some people to be the default definition of human and all around the world, infrastructure, laws, education systems, inventions are all unless, you know, otherwise determined, honestly set up with the default idea that humans will be male. They'll be probably middle to upper middle class. They'll be fully able bodied. Most likely they're gonna be white. They're gonna be cisgendered. Which means that their gender identity matches the sex their body was born with. They're going to be heterosexual and their life goals are going to include things like a mortgage and a partnership and children. Generally, that's the default.

Kristen: (02:10)
So when we make working hour laws, we assume that it's a man with a partner at home. When we make cell phones, the only hands that Apple ever tests cell phones on are male hands. When we talk about, you know, what we should pay people. When we talk about how quickly you can pay back your student loans. When we talk about lots of things, whether we realize it or not, we are assuming that the people we are talking about is that category I just defined. So anyway, in which you line up with any of those categories, if you're a male, if you're white, if you're able bodied, if you're middle to upper middle class, if your BMI is socially acceptable, if you're cisgendered, if you're heterosexual, generally, what that means is that you have privilege. Privilege means the system is designed to work for you because you were what they had in mind.

Kristen: (03:07)
When they designed the system, there is no shame or judgment or moral imperative that comes with that. There is just, the system is designed to work for you. If you're thinking the, and you're like, that's not true, cuz blah, blah, blah. It's probably cuz you've never seen the system because the system is designed to work for you. So then where oppression comes in is any way in which you don't line up with those systems, the degrees of oppression and privilege vary from category to culture and everything else. The other important piece to understand in this conversation is the phrase, "intersectionality". Intersectionality is a term coined by Dr. Kimberly Crenshaw back in the 1980s, she's a legal scholar. And now she's known often for being one of the four thinkers in critical race theory, which is not what we are teaching children in school.

Kristen: (03:59)
I will just simply say that here. It's I have a PhD in sociology and I didn't learn critical race theory. So I promise that fifth graders are learning something a little bit different, but Kimberly Crenshaw came up with intersectionality to acknowledge the fact that while all women are oppressed on some level black women experience oppression at a more significant level than white women do. And essentially what it has come to real mean as social scientists is that we are all a lot of things at once. I am not just a woman. You are not just a whatever you are. I am not just white. I am not just middle class. I'm not just educated. I am all of these things and they come together in very specific ways. It's kind of like the back of a cross stitch. We're all kind of, we're all just a lot of things to make up who we are in the front of the cross stitch.

Kristen: (04:49)
Every society has different priorities in terms of which of those threads are privileged and not. I say all the time, like, you know, we, we can add in othering and normal as well for the phrases of privileged and oppressed. If you're normal in your society, you are privileged. If you are othered, you are oppressed in some way, but again, your mileage may vary. Degrees vary here. I have oppression as a woman, for sure. I don't have the same level of oppression in the United States as I would have in Saudi Arabia. But that doesn't mean that I don't have oppression in the US. So the, so there's that. So there's privilege there's intersection, there's othering, there's oppression. All of that. What I like to say is that meaning that everybody is all those things all at once. Actually means that we're all diverse creatures as it is.

Kristen: (05:45)
So none of us are one thing which means that you can't create diversity within your organization or your family or your social circle because everyone is already diverse. What you need to do instead is create inclusivity. And inclusivity is the decision to let everybody show up on their own terms and not determine the shorthand for who they are. And we get that shorthand through using tolerance and tolerance is simply saying you are alive because I cannot kill you. That's it. Tolerance is drilling everybody down to the easiest, common denominator that we can see when we look at them and putting them in categories that are easy for us to interact with it denies people, their personhood and their complications. It allows us to say, well, I can't ever know that person, cuz they voted for someone different than me. I can't ever know that person because they're gay. I can't ever know that person because they're evil. And instead if we eliminate tolerance, which is one of my life missions and we understand that everybody's already a diverse person in front of you, you're diverse, I'm diverse. We're all diverse heyo. What we're actually trying is create inclusivity. Then we can have the hard conversations about how to do that. But let's eliminate the myth that tolerance gets us anywhere.

Adam: (07:12)
Wow. So you've covered a lot of things and I wanted to kind of circle back to where you started, where you were talking about the ideal human, right? Mm-hmm, so if you don't meet that criteria, you become an other.

Kristen: (07:24)
In some way.

Adam: (07:25)
In some way, right? So a lot of times when we get separated and we try to find others who have been othered, who are othered like us and we come together because we wanna feel comfortable with somebody who's been othered as well.

Kristen: (07:37)
Absolutely.

Adam: (07:38)
But is that so bad that we do that?

Kristen: (07:41)
No, if that's, if it's the end goal and you stay in that group, maybe.

Adam: (07:46)
Okay.

Kristen: (07:46)
Or if you all pretend that the only thing you are is that thing you got othered for. Then I think it gets limiting. That is a weird ...