Mark Leonard's World in 30 Minutes13 Jun 2025

Doves and Hawks: Foreign policy in the second Trump age

A humanitarian crisis in Gaza; question marks around Iran; unstable governments in eastern Europe; and the growth of China’s economic and military might. All are cause for concern—and all provide the backdrop to the Trump administration’s approach to foreign policy, which represents the biggest generational shift since the cold war.

This week Mark Leonard is joined by Dan Caldwell, former senior adviser at the Pentagon, and Curt Mills, executive editor of the American Conservative, to talk about what is influencing Donald Trump’s foreign policy. The president, and many key players in defence, agree that constant military build-up and the steady accruing of debt—which has characterised foreign policy since Reagan—has left America with little to show. The prevailing ideology of conservative anti-globalism is characterised by the US paring back military presence outside the Western hemisphere and a “realist” approach to trade.

But the administration has dissenting voices, in particular those advocating a more hawkish policy towards Iran. Mark, Dan and Curt take a deep dive into the sentiments and personalities influencing the second Trump era’s foreign policy, and consider what the world—and especially Europeans—can expect for the months ahead.

Bookshelf:

The Bin Ladens: An Arabian Family in the American Century by Steve Coll

The Achilles Trap: Saddam Hussein, the C.I.A., and the Origins of America's Invasion of Iraq by Steve Coll

Collapse: The Fall of the Soviet Union by Vladislav M. Zubok

The World of the Cold War 1945-1991 by Vladislav M. Zubok

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