204. The 4 Horsemen of Meaning | Bishop Barron, John Vervaeke, and Jonathan Pageau

204. The 4 Horsemen of Meaning | Bishop Barron, John Vervaeke, and Jonathan Pageau

This episode was recorded on September 10th 2021. Jordan Peterson, Bishop Barron, John Vervaeke, and Jonathan Pageau have a round table to explore ideas and theories of Meaning. All three guests have been on the podcast before, and all share Jordan’s passion for the universal truths of human experience. This deep discussion explores the roots of Meaning and religious significance. Bishop Barron is the founder of Word on Fire and the auxiliary bishop of the archdiocese of LA. John Vervaeke is a colleague of Jordan’s and an associate professor at the University of Toronto since 1994. He teaches courses on reasoning, cognitive development, and higher cognitive processes. Jonathan Pageau is a symbolic thinker, YouTuber, and class carver of orthodox icons. - Find more Bishop Barron on YouTube: https://youtube.com/user/wordonfirevideo And here: https://wordonfire.org/ Find more John Vervaeke online on his website: http://johnvervaeke.com John's YouTube channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UCpqDUjTsof-kTNpnyWper_Q Find more Jonathan Pageau on YouTube: https://youtube.com/channel/UCtCTSf3UwRU14nYWr_xm-dQ Jonathan's website: http://www.pageaucarvings.com _________ [00:00] Preview [01:30] Intro [02:40] Everyone gives their answer to “What is meaning?” [03:30] “We're using meaning as a metaphor... something similar to the way a sentence works. It has intelligibility to it that connects us to the world... so that we can interact and be informed by it” Jon Vervaeke [07:22] “Our mental framing is transparent like a pair of glasses, but there are times we need to step back and, by taking the glasses off and examining them, consider our framing structure" JV [09:10] “When you look at the world there is a central point of focus. When you focus on the point with your eyes it becomes very clear... until we no longer perceive anything by the edge of our vision. It's nothingness, it's just not there" Jordan Peterson [13:56] Bishop Barron's view on meaning and religion [14:23] “I would say that meaning is to be in a purposeful relationship to a value" Bishop Robert Barron [17:55] “So I'm talking to you, which I believe is a good, but it's nested in a higher good and a still higher good, so finally I want not just this particular good but good itself—that's a religious relationship" BRB [18:20] Pageau’s opening thoughts on meaning and religion [19:56] “The reason we perceive hierarchy is because we are always judging... or trying to evaluate whether something’s good" Pageau [20:31] Jordan’s brief foray into “mini-celebrations” [21:53] The idea of revelation [24:46] “It isn't obvious to me that we see objects—we see patterns" JP [27:40] “Like a Rolling Stone—it wasn't the first song I liked, but it was the first that rocked my world and rearranged my mind, and I think that's where real value is" BRB [28:42] Underlying causes of the crisis of meaning [30:10] “Something that starts with Scotus... and goes into the heart of the scientific revolution is that there’s no such thing as levels—reality just is" JV [31:00] Science around the hierarchy of intelligibility and connectedness [33:00] What is science? [39:00] “There’s an epistemic hierarchy and science does not belong on the top" BRB [42:00] “As scientists, we are motivated by a narrative we don't understand scientifically… The whole enterprise is driven by a dream whose reality can't be encapsulated within the process itself" JP [44:00] The ignorance in assuming science OR religion are correct [44:40] Eminationist ontologies [55:30] Religious experiences [01:07:30] The book of Revelations as a psychedelic experience. [01:17:30] The Psychedelic problem and why psychedelics are useful in communal experiences. [01:26:00] Jordan’s biblical lectures [01:32:00] What are the guests working on? [01:36:00] Beauty in churches [01:38:00] Growing up Christian [01:44:00] Possibility is real [01:50:00] Joining religion and science [02:03:30] Wrapping up #Meaning #Psychology #Religion Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Episoder(581)

Jordan Peterson Live on Tour: There Are Still Dreams Worth Chasing

Jordan Peterson Live on Tour: There Are Still Dreams Worth Chasing

In this live lecture from Omaha, Nebraska, Dr. Jordan B. Peterson weaves through biblical narratives and cultural critique—from Tolstoy’s suicidal despair to Moses’ encounter with the burning bush, from Cain’s failed sacrifice to James Bond as the symbol of romantic adventure. What do these stories have in common? What happens when we replace transcendent pursuit with technological pride or ideological dogma? This is a warning—and a call—to speak the truth, take up your cross, and climb.     This “We Who Wrestle With God” tour stop was filmed in Omaha, NE, on October 21st, 2024. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

23 Jun 20251h 6min

556. How Social Media Is Wrecking Kids' Lives and Stealing Their Childhood | Jonathan Haidt

556. How Social Media Is Wrecking Kids' Lives and Stealing Their Childhood | Jonathan Haidt

In this urgent conversation, Jonathan Haidt and Jordan Peterson dissect the silent catastrophe facing Gen Z—spiraling anxiety, attention collapse, and social isolation—all amplified by addictive tech. They explore the psychological and spiritual fallout of algorithm-optimized platforms, the gendered impact on boys and girls, and what it means to raise children in a virtualized world. Data-driven but deeply human, this is essential viewing for anyone wondering what the hell happened after 2012—and how to fix it.   This episode was filmed on June 9th, 2025     | Links |   For Jonathan Haidt:   On X https://x.com/jonhaidt?lang=en   On Substack https://substack.com/@jonathanhaidt   On YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@JonathanHaidt1/videos   Website https://jonathanhaidt.com/   Read “The Anxious Generation: How the Great Rewiring of Childhood Is Causing an Epidemic of Mental Illness” https://a.co/d/04yfM36  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

19 Jun 20251h 43min

Jordan Peterson Live on Tour: The Hidden Key to a Fulfilling Life

Jordan Peterson Live on Tour: The Hidden Key to a Fulfilling Life

In this powerful lecture from the We Who Wrestle With God tour, Dr. Jordan B. Peterson explores why stories aren't just entertainment—but the essential structure through which we perceive reality, aim toward meaning, and shape our lives. From biblical archetypes to everyday struggles, Peterson weaves a compelling argument that our suffering, identity, and moral choices are all governed by the stories we believe and the sacrifices we're willing to make. Drawing on deep psychological insight and ancient wisdom, he reveals that without a unifying aim, we drift toward bitterness and chaos—but with the right sacrifice, we forge a path toward meaning, community, and spiritual alignment.   This “We Who Wrestle With God” tour stop was filmed in Reading, PA on October 14th, 2024. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

16 Jun 20251h 30min

555. How the Internet Is Breaking Our Brains | Sam Harris

555. How the Internet Is Breaking Our Brains | Sam Harris

Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris explore the breakdown of institutions in the digital age, and how difficult it’s become to identify what’s true and what’s not. Harris voices deep concern over the role independent media and social platforms play in amplifying misinformation, especially post-October 7th. They discuss the addictive, fragmenting nature of platforms like X, the erosion of trust in institutions, the dangers of AI-generated identity theft — and possible solutions. The result is a sobering analysis of epistemic collapse, digital psychopathy, and the urgent need for institutional structure in a world where mass information fails us.   'This episode was filmed on June 6th, 2025.     | Links |   For Sam Harris:   On X https://twitter.com/MakingSenseHQ     On Instagram https://www.instagram.com/samharrisorg/?hl=en   On Youtube https://www.youtube.com/@samharrisorg   Substack https://samharris.substack.com/   The Waking Up App https://www.wakingup.com/  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

12 Jun 20251h 45min

554. What One Billionaire Knows About Outlasting a Dollar Collapse | Michael Saylor

554. What One Billionaire Knows About Outlasting a Dollar Collapse | Michael Saylor

In this exclusive Sessions interview, Dr. Jordan B. Peterson and Michael Saylor explore the evolving relationship between the U.S. government and Bitcoin, Donald Trump’s growing recognition of cryptocurrency as a strategic commodity, the visionary impact of Bitcoin’s founder Satoshi Nakamoto, and the looming convergence of digital currency with our everyday lives.   This episode was filmed on May 30th, 2025.     | Links |   For Michael Saylor:   On X https://x.com/saylor   Website https://www.michael.com/   Read “What is Money” https://a.co/d/c1t4izi  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

9 Jun 20251h 32min

553. Why Do Smart People Double Down On Bad Ideas? | Dr. Gad Saad

553. Why Do Smart People Double Down On Bad Ideas? | Dr. Gad Saad

Dr. Jordan B. Peterson and evolutionary psychologist Dr. Gad Saad reunite for a conversation that blends ancient myth, evolutionary theory, and cultural psychology. Together, they dissect cognitive dissonance, the dangers of willful blindness, and the evolutionary logic behind sacrifice, delayed gratification, and identity formation.   This episode was filmed on May 23rd, 2025.     | Links |   For Dr. Gad Saad:   Read “The Saad Truth About Happiness: 8 Rules for Living the Good Life” https://a.co/d/1IqTyM9   On X https://twitter.com/GadSaad   On Facebook https://www.facebook.com/Dr.Gad.Saad/   On Instagram https://www.instagram.com/doctorgadsaad/   On YouTube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLH7qUqM0PLieCVaHA7RegA   Spotify Podcast https://open.spotify.com/show/5T2wjkFxsjvuxO1SDcZh29   Apple podcast https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/the-saad-truth-with-dr-saad/id1516343565  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

5 Jun 20251h 22min

552. The Feminism Debate: Can Women Have It All? | Megyn Kelly

552. The Feminism Debate: Can Women Have It All? | Megyn Kelly

Dr. Jordan B. Peterson and journalist Megyn Kelly dissect the cultural and psychological forces reshaping modern gender dynamics—particularly the rising unhappiness among young women, the suppression of traditional masculinity, and the consequences of empathy-driven institutions. They explore maternal overreach, the devaluation of motherhood, the politicization of victimhood, and the unintended fallout of feminism’s gains in the corporate and academic world. This episode unpacks how men and women are drifting further apart—politically, emotionally, and biologically—and asks whether modern society is equipped to repair the divide wrought by extreme feminism.   This episode was filmed on May 28th, 2025.   There’s nothing more difficult—or more important—than raising a child. In this new 5-part series, Dr. Jordan B. Peterson brings decades of clinical insight to the questions every parent faces: discipline, identity, responsibility, and what it truly means to guide a child toward a meaningful life. Available now, exclusively on DailyWire+ https://www.dailywire.com/show/parenting    | Links |   For Megyn Kelly:   On X https://x.com/megynkellyshow?lang=en   On Youtube https://www.youtube.com/@MegynKelly   Website https://www.megynkelly.com/  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

2 Jun 20251h 21min

551. An Honest Take on the Looming Energy Crisis | Scott Tinker

551. An Honest Take on the Looming Energy Crisis | Scott Tinker

Is our planet doomed? Probably not, it turns out. Dr. Jordan B. Peterson joins geologist Scott Tinker to dismantle the myth of energy scarcity, exposing the flawed narratives that demonize coal, oil, and natural gas. Together, they reject the false binary of renewables versus fossil fuels, arguing instead for an abundant future powered by both. This conversation confronts the culture of fear that paralyzes progress and issues a stark warning: if the West continues to undermine its own energy and technological ambitions in service of an ideological green agenda, it risks ceding global leadership to authoritarian regimes like China. Innovation, prosperity, and freedom depend on confronting reality—not retreating from it.   Privacy Policy: https://www.dailywire.com/privacy   This episode was filmed on May 23rd, 2025.     | Links |   For Scott Tinker:   Watch Scott’s speech at the 2025 ARC Conference https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7EjhVyCHgA   Switch On (Film) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xk75bD-C3H4     Switch Energy Alliance https://switchon.org/about/leadership/     Watch Energy Switch (Show) https://www.pbs.org/show/energy-switch/   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

29 Mai 20251h 32min

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