The Body Does Not Keep the Score

In this episode of Flow Research, host Steven Kotler sits down with fellow neuroscientists Dr. Michael Mannino and Glenn Fox to unpack their viral opinion paper, "The Body Does Not Keep the Score."

Taking direct aim at popular trauma psychology, the team exposes why Bessel van der Kolk’s belief that trauma is stored in the body gets neuroscience completely wrong. They unpack how the modern "cult of trauma" hijacks genuine recovery, offering instead a ground-breaking path through systems neuroscience. Discover how predictive coding, dynamic flexibility (metastability), and flow states re-wire the brain to override trauma and unlock peak performance.

Guest Bios:

Michael Mannino, PhD

Dr. Michael Mannino is a neuroscientist, co-CEO of Syneurgy, and Chief Science Officer at Flow Research Collective. He works at the intersection of applied neuroscience, human performance science, and AI. Michael holds a PhD in neuroscience, has published research on cognition, consciousness, flow, and intuition, and brings a systems-level perspective shaped by work across academia, technology, and research institutions including NASA.

Glenn Fox, PhD

Dr. Glenn Fox is a neuroscientist at USC’s Marshall School of Business, where he directs the Foundwell Initiative studying founder mindset and performance. A former principal investigator at USC’s Smart VR Center and leader at the Performance Science Institute, his research focuses on gratitude, flow, and resilience under pressure alongside military and elite athletic organizations.

In This Episode:
00:00 The Paper That Shook Neuroscience

02:26 78,000 Views: Why "The Body Keeps the Score" Got It Wrong

04:37 Evolutionary Models & The Cult of Trauma

12:12 Re-evaluating Bessel van der Kolk’s Core Thesis

24:43 Inside the Brain: Decision-Making & Somatic Markers

35:53 Metastability & The Free Energy Principle Explained

44:07 How Flow States Re-Wire Traumatic Memory

52:43 Post-Traumatic Growth, Gratitude, and Stress Signals

59:36 The 2-to-4 Hour Protocol to Override Burnout

01:13:28 AI, Divergent Thinking, and the Missing Somatic Feedback Loop

Episode Resources:

READ THE RESEARCH:

Read Steven, Glenn, and Michael’s viral paper, "The Body Does Not Keep the Score" in Frontiers in Systems Neuroscience.

→ Read the viral paper that's challenging trauma psychology.

STEVEN’S NEW BOOK: WE ARE AS GODS

As discussed in today’s episode, our "Stone Age" brains weren't built for the modern flood of stress and AI. In "We Are as Gods", Steven Kotler and Peter Diamandis reveal how to upgrade your cognitive resilience, override victim mindsets, and harness flow states in an age of exponential tech.

→ Order your copy here.

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Flow Radio Is Presented By Steven Kotler’s Flow Research Collective

Flow Radio Is Presented By Steven Kotler’s Flow Research Collective

The Flow Research Collective is an R&D non-profit organization decoding the neurobiology of peak performance to treat mental health and neurological disorders.‍

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Flow Research Collective was founded by Steven Kotler, one of the world’s leading experts on human peak performance. He is an award-winning journalist and author with over ten bestselling books.