#209 – Rose Chan Loui on OpenAI’s gambit to ditch its nonprofit

#209 – Rose Chan Loui on OpenAI’s gambit to ditch its nonprofit

One OpenAI critic calls it “the theft of at least the millennium and quite possibly all of human history.” Are they right?

Back in 2015 OpenAI was but a humble nonprofit. That nonprofit started a for-profit, OpenAI LLC, but made sure to retain ownership and control. But that for-profit, having become a tech giant with vast staffing and investment, has grown tired of its shackles and wants to change the deal.

Facing off against it stand eight out-gunned and out-numbered part-time volunteers. Can they hope to defend the nonprofit’s interests against the overwhelming profit motives arrayed against them?

That’s the question host Rob Wiblin puts to nonprofit legal expert Rose Chan Loui of UCLA, who concludes that with a “heroic effort” and a little help from some friendly state attorneys general, they might just stand a chance.

Links to learn more, highlights, video, and full transcript.

As Rose lays out, on paper OpenAI is controlled by a nonprofit board that:

  • Can fire the CEO.
  • Would receive all the profits after the point OpenAI makes 100x returns on investment.
  • Is legally bound to do whatever it can to pursue its charitable purpose: “to build artificial general intelligence that benefits humanity.”

But that control is a problem for OpenAI the for-profit and its CEO Sam Altman — all the more so after the board concluded back in November 2023 that it couldn’t trust Altman and attempted to fire him (although those board members were ultimately ousted themselves after failing to adequately explain their rationale).

Nonprofit control makes it harder to attract investors, who don’t want a board stepping in just because they think what the company is doing is bad for humanity. And OpenAI the business is thirsty for as many investors as possible, because it wants to beat competitors and train the first truly general AI — able to do every job humans currently do — which is expected to cost hundreds of billions of dollars.

So, Rose explains, they plan to buy the nonprofit out. In exchange for giving up its windfall profits and the ability to fire the CEO or direct the company’s actions, the board will become minority shareholders with reduced voting rights, and presumably transform into a normal grantmaking foundation instead.

Is this a massive bait-and-switch? A case of the tail not only wagging the dog, but grabbing a scalpel and neutering it?

OpenAI repeatedly committed to California, Delaware, the US federal government, founding staff, and the general public that its resources would be used for its charitable mission and it could be trusted because of nonprofit control. Meanwhile, the divergence in interests couldn’t be more stark: every dollar the for-profit keeps from its nonprofit parent is another dollar it could invest in AGI and ultimately return to investors and staff.

Chapters:

  • Cold open (00:00:00)
  • What's coming up (00:00:50)
  • Who is Rose Chan Loui? (00:03:11)
  • How OpenAI carefully chose a complex nonprofit structure (00:04:17)
  • OpenAI's new plan to become a for-profit (00:11:47)
  • The nonprofit board is out-resourced and in a tough spot (00:14:38)
  • Who could be cheated in a bad conversion to a for-profit? (00:17:11)
  • Is this a unique case? (00:27:24)
  • Is control of OpenAI 'priceless' to the nonprofit in pursuit of its mission? (00:28:58)
  • The crazy difficulty of valuing the profits OpenAI might make (00:35:21)
  • Control of OpenAI is independently incredibly valuable and requires compensation (00:41:22)
  • It's very important the nonprofit get cash and not just equity (and few are talking about it) (00:51:37)
  • Is it a farce to call this an "arm's-length transaction"? (01:03:50)
  • How the nonprofit board can best play their hand (01:09:04)
  • Who can mount a court challenge and how that would work (01:15:41)
  • Rob's outro (01:21:25)

Producer: Keiran Harris
Audio engineering by Ben Cordell, Milo McGuire, Simon Monsour, and Dominic Armstrong
Video editing: Simon Monsour
Transcriptions: Katy Moore

Avsnitt(320)

OpenAI: The nonprofit refuses to be killed (with Tyler Whitmer)

OpenAI: The nonprofit refuses to be killed (with Tyler Whitmer)

Last December, the OpenAI business put forward a plan to completely sideline its nonprofit board. But two state attorneys general have now blocked that effort and kept that board very much alive and k...

11 Nov 20251h 56min

#227 – Helen Toner on the geopolitics of AGI in China and the Middle East

#227 – Helen Toner on the geopolitics of AGI in China and the Middle East

With the US racing to develop AGI and superintelligence ahead of China, you might expect the two countries to be negotiating how they’ll deploy AI, including in the military, without coming to blows. ...

5 Nov 20252h 20min

#226 – Holden Karnofsky on unexploited opportunities to make AI safer — and all his AGI takes

#226 – Holden Karnofsky on unexploited opportunities to make AI safer — and all his AGI takes

For years, working on AI safety usually meant theorising about the ‘alignment problem’ or trying to convince other people to give a damn. If you could find any way to help, the work was frustrating an...

30 Okt 20254h 30min

#225 – Daniel Kokotajlo on what a hyperspeed robot economy might look like

#225 – Daniel Kokotajlo on what a hyperspeed robot economy might look like

When Daniel Kokotajlo talks to security experts at major AI labs, they tell him something chilling: “Of course we’re probably penetrated by the CCP already, and if they really wanted something, they c...

27 Okt 20252h 12min

#224 – There's a cheap and low-tech way to save humanity from any engineered disease | Andrew Snyder-Beattie

#224 – There's a cheap and low-tech way to save humanity from any engineered disease | Andrew Snyder-Beattie

Conventional wisdom is that safeguarding humanity from the worst biological risks — microbes optimised to kill as many as possible — is difficult bordering on impossible, making bioweapons humanity’s ...

2 Okt 20252h 31min

Inside the Biden admin’s AI policy approach | Jake Sullivan, Biden’s NSA | via The Cognitive Revolution

Inside the Biden admin’s AI policy approach | Jake Sullivan, Biden’s NSA | via The Cognitive Revolution

Jake Sullivan was the US National Security Advisor from 2021-2025. He joined our friends on The Cognitive Revolution podcast in August to discuss AI as a critical national security issue. We thought i...

26 Sep 20251h 5min

#223 – Neel Nanda on leading a Google DeepMind team at 26 – and advice if you want to work at an AI company (part 2)

#223 – Neel Nanda on leading a Google DeepMind team at 26 – and advice if you want to work at an AI company (part 2)

At 26, Neel Nanda leads an AI safety team at Google DeepMind, has published dozens of influential papers, and mentored 50 junior researchers — seven of whom now work at major AI companies. His secret?...

15 Sep 20251h 46min

#222 – Can we tell if an AI is loyal by reading its mind? DeepMind's Neel Nanda (part 1)

#222 – Can we tell if an AI is loyal by reading its mind? DeepMind's Neel Nanda (part 1)

We don’t know how AIs think or why they do what they do. Or at least, we don’t know much. That fact is only becoming more troubling as AIs grow more capable and appear on track to wield enormous cultu...

8 Sep 20253h 1min

Populärt inom Utbildning

historiepodden-se
rss-bara-en-till-om-missbruk-medberoende-2
det-skaver
nu-blir-det-historia
harrisons-dramatiska-historia
rss-viktmedicinpodden
johannes-hansen-podcast
roda-vita-rosen
not-fanny-anymore
allt-du-velat-veta
sektledare
alska-oss
rss-sjalsligt-avkladd
i-vantan-pa-katastrofen
sa-in-i-sjalen
rss-beratta-alltid-det-har
rss-max-tant-med-max-villman
rss-basta-livet
dumforklarat
rikatillsammans-om-privatekonomi-rikedom-i-livet