EP 448- NM Max Farberov on Beating Plateaus, Springing Opening Surprises, and Why Speed Chess Matters

My guest today is Jen Shahade. Jen, is a champion chess and poker player, an author, an award winning podcaster and the Woman’s Program Director at US Chess. It was the perfect time to catch up with Jen, as she has just released her new book, Chess Queens. Chess Queen’s is an insightful, entertaining and introspective look at key figures in the history of Women’s Chess, and a reflection on Jen’s own chess journey to the pinnacle of American chess. It is an updated and expanded version of Jen’s first book, Chess Bitch. In our interview, we dig into the process of updating and rewriting a book, and then Jen shares a few of the amazing life stories covered in the book. Jen also discusses her own upcoming projects, chess in the Queen’s Gambit age, and dispenses some chess and life improvement advice. There is always lots to learn from Jen! Lots more details and relevant links are in the show description.  Jen’s Prior Appearances on the Pod: Episode 50 with Jen Shahade  Book Recap #7 discussing Judit Polgar’s How I Beat Fischer’s Record with Jen Shahade  0:00- Jen discusses how her new book came into being.  Mentioned: GM David Howell match against GM Nils Grandelius, GM Simon Williams, Silman-James Publishing, GM Judit Polgar, GM Hou Yifan, Vera Menchik, Lisa Lane, Diana Lanni, GM Alexandra Kosteniuk, Kieie Laymon  15:45- What was the experience like of doing an audio book?  Mentioned: Anya Taylor Joy  17:30- Perpetual Chess is brought to you in part by Chessable.com. Check out their latest offerings here.  New Chess Courses Online - For All Levels in all - Chessable.com 18:30- Jen tells the crazy story of the time a coin flip decided who gets to play for the Women’s World Championship.  Mentioned: GM Susan Polgar, WGM Nona Ioseliani  26:30- Why is chess so much more popular with women in some countries than others?  Mentioned: Ladies Knight with Martha Fierro, Nadya Ortiz 30:00- Jen discusses some her favorite figures mentioned in the book including some successful chess champions who became politicians and Sonya Graf.   Mentioned: Antoaneta Stefanova, Viktorija Čmilytė-Nielsen, Vera Menchik  35:00- Patreon mailbag question: Why does Jen think many girls quit chess in their teenage years?  Mentioned: Rachel Crotto  40:00- Perpetual Chess is brought to you in part by Aimchess.com. Aimchess collects and analyzes your games and gives you actionable tips based on the data it gathers. Check the site out, and if you choose to subscribe, please use the code Perpetual30 to save 30%.  41:00- Perpetual Chess is brought to you in part by Better Help. You can see some online reviews here, and if you sign up, use this link to save 10%: https://www.betterhelp.com/chess 42:00- Patreon mailbag question:When will a book about women in poker similar to Chess Queens be written?  Mentioned: Poker Power, The Biggest Bluff  45:00- Patreon mailbag question: How can chess players apply poker strategies to chess? Has Jen done so herself?  Mentioned: GM Danil Dubov, GM Fabiano Caruana, EP 265 with GM Simon Williams, How to Chess Episode 10 With FM Nate Solon , Zwischenzug Substack 52:00- Patreon mailbag question: Will there be ways to get signed copies of Chess Queens?  Mentioned: Dr. Alexey Root, Facebook Chess Book Collector’s Group  57:00- Patreon mailbag question: Has Jen read Robert B. Tanner’s book about Vera Menchik ? 59:00- What is Jen’s next book, Reset, about?  1:01- What skills is Jen looking to develop right now? Any chess improvement tips?  Mentioned: Daniel Kahneman, GM Jesse Kraai, GM Noel Studer  1:07:00- What can men do to help ensure a welcoming environment for female chess players?  1:08:00- Thanks so much to Jen for coming on the pod. Here are links to keep up with her. Twitter Instagram Chess Queens Website  If you would like to help support Perpetual Chess, you can do so here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

8 Mars 20221h 12min

This week on Perpetual Chess I am joined by co-authors of a great new book, Winning the World Open, by GM Joel Benjamin and Harold Scott. Joel Benjamin is a 6 time World Open Champion, 3 time US Champion, 2020 US Senior Champion, an Author, a Trainer and a Dad. He has been amongst the top 50 players in the world and battled with many chess legends over the years, as we discussed in our prior interview in 2018. His co-author is FIDE certified trainer, tournament director and USCF expert, Harold Scott. Their book is part historical retrospective, part chess instruction and has lots of fun stories and tons of instructive high stakes games. We discuss the history of the largest open tournament in America and tell some amusing stories involving cheating, alcohol, and, of course, chess. Please read on for more details and timestamps. 0:00- Ukraine related links:  Photo of GM Alexandr Sulypa here  US Chess/Kasparov Chess Support for Ukrainian Chess Players Initiative here  Here are many other ways to support Ukrainians directly, via GothamChess’ Twitter:  https://ukrainewar.carrd.co/ 03:00- Brenda Goichberg who was CCA founder Bill Goichberg’s wife, and a key contributor to the World Open, among many other things, passed away recently. Harold shares a few details about her personality.  07:30- How did this book come into being?  09:30- The World Open was founded in 1973. What were the early days of the World Open like?  Mentioned: GM Bent Larsen  14:00- GM Joel Benjamin has won the World Open more times than anyone else? What are his most memorable moments? Who were the most impressive competitors?  Mentioned: GM Alex Yermolinksy, GM Alex Shabalov, GM Alex Goldin  24:30- Perpetual Chess is brought to you in part by Aimchess.com. Aimchess collects and analyzes your games and gives you actionable tips based on the data it gathers. Check the site out, and if you choose to subscribe, please use the code Perpetual30 to save 30%.  25:30- What are the most memorable cheating scandals at the World Open? Mentioned: GM Alexander Shabalov, GM Nukhim Rashkovsky, GM Igor Glek, “John von Neumann vs. Daniel Shapiro   39:00- Any memorable stories involving alcohol at the World Open? Mentioned: GM David Norwood  42:00- Any tips for playing under pressure and/or in large stakes games?  Mentioned: GM Ilya Nyznhik  47:00- GM Eduard Gufeld was notoriously irascible. What memorable stories can Joel and Harold share about his behavior? Mentioned: Gufeld’s “Mona Lisa” vs. Bagirov 1973, FM Sunil Weerumantry, Weerumantry-Gufeld 1996, Benjamin-Gufeld 1998, GM John Fedorowicz  55:00- Perpetual Chess is brought to you in part by Chessable.com. You can check out their latest offerings here:  New Chess Courses Online - For All Levels- Chessable.com 55:30- Patreon Mailbag Question: “Will Joel sell his stockpile of Chess Chow magazine?” 58:00- Patreon Mailbag Question: “Does Joel have any tips for converting advantages?” Mentioned: Better Thinking, Better Chess, GM Ilya Smirin  1:01:00- Do the authors have some general tournament advice to share?  1:06:00- Patreon Mailbag Question: “Any chance the authors would write a book about the famed US Amateur Team tournaments?”  Mentioned: Facebook Chess Book Collectors Group  1:11:00- SIGNED BOOK CONTEST INSTRUCTIONS- Write a review or simply give 5 stars on Spotify to Perpetual Chess  Take a screenshot  Email the screenshot to Ben at perpetualchesspod.com with the subject line “Contest” That’s it! Winners will be announced via email on March 15, 2022.  1:12:00 Thanks to Joel and Harold for joining the show! Here is where to get their books: Amazon Ebook via New in Chess App  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

1 Mars 20221h 17min

Chess Books Recaptured returns to discuss a relatively recent book that is quickly being recognized as a modern classic, GM Jan Markos’ Under the Surface. Jan’s book is a philosophical look at the beauty of chess, as demonstrated by many original concepts and chess metaphors. The chess examples are intermediate to advanced levels, but the book contains lessons that are applicable to all players. I am joined by 2 guest co-hosts this month, both of whom are also chess bibliophiles and particular fans of this book. NM Gopal Menon is a Chicago-based chess trainer, and a blitz and opening specialist with a peak online blitz rating over 2900. Matt Fletcher is a UK based actuary, dad, and strong club player who frequently competes OTB in his local chess leagues. It was tons of fun to discuss an amazing book with two fellow hardcore chess fans! As always, more details, timestamps and relevant links can be found below.  0:00-  Why do we love this book?  Mentioned: Gopal Menon’s post of his favorite chess books, Seven Deadly Chess Sins by GM Jonathan Rowson, Episode 239 with GM Jan Markos, Available on Forward Chess,  The Secret Ingredient by GM Jan Markos and GM David Navara  12:15- Perpetual Chess is brought to you in part by Chessable.com. You can check out their latest offerings here:  New Chess Courses Online - For All Levels- Chessable.com 13:00- Perpetual Chess is brought to you in part by Better Help. You can see some online reviews here, and if you sign up, use this link to save 10%: https://www.betterhelp.com/chess 14:30- We select our favorite aspects of the book.  Mentioned: Correspondence GM Tansel Turgut, Imagination in Chess, Pump Up Your Rating by GM Axel Smith  37:00- Perpetual Chess is brought to you in part by Aimchess.com. Aimchess collects and analyzes your games and gives you actionable tips based on the data it gathers. Check the site out, and if you choose to subscribe, please use the code Perpetual30 to save 30%.  38:00- We discuss more of our favorite segments, including the author’s unique insights about openings and another favorite metaphor from the book.  Mentioned: The London System, Stonewall Dutch, Follow Gopal’s Lichess blog here, GM Alex Shabalov. Check out the Stockfish Leela Zero game Matt mentioned here 52:00- We summarize GM Markos’ chess improvement advice and catch up a bit on Gopal’s book project and Matt’s chess.  57:00- Coming next month! Neal Bruce returns to the podcast to compare 8 different chess strategy puzzle books, and Chrisopher Chabris will join me to discuss the book The Mammoth Book of Chess.  58:00- Thanks to Gopal and Matt for joining me to discuss this great book, here are the links to keep up with them: Matt’s Twitter Gopal’s Twitter Gopal’s Lichess Blog If you are looking for chess instruction in Chicago, check out Gopal’s organization, Dynamic Chess: https://dynamicchessinc.com/ Dynamic Chess  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

25 Feb 20221h 4min

NM Nelson Lopez is a USCF Master and former scholastic champion whose “ChessVibes” YouTube channel has grown from 0 to 100,000 subscribers in less than 2 years! In our conversation we postulate reasons for the channel’s rapid growth, and Nelson shares both chess improvement and content creation advice for listeners. Nelson also tells his own “chess story.” Chess played a major part of his teenage years, as his success helped him earn a chess scholarship to University of Texas at Dallas. After college, Nelson spent some years away from the game. He is a husband and dad of 2 young kids and in the wake of his success, he recently quit his job in software development to focus on his chess content full time. Nelson is also competing OTB again, and reflects on how that world has changed while he was away. Nelson has a great story to share, and I really enjoyed speaking with him. Please read on for more details, timestamps and relevant links.  0:00- Nelson retells the modest beginnings of his YouTube channel and walks us through its rapid growth.  13:45- Patreon mailbag question- One of Nelson’s most popular videos is about what he calls “the 1% rule”- “What should one do when one is accumulating chess knowledge, but not improving their chess skills?”  Mentioned: Atomic Habits by James Clear, Skip the Line by James Altucher  21:00- Perpetual Chess is brought to you in part by Aimchess.com. Aimchess collects and analyzes your games and gives you actionable tips based on the data it gathers. Check the site out, and if you choose to subscribe, please use the code Perpetual30 to save 30%.  21:45- Perpetual Chess is brought to you in part by Better Help. You can see some online reviews here, and if you sign up, use this link to save 10%: https://www.betterhelp.com/chess 22:30- Nelson recently played his first OTB tournament in 8 years.  What lessons did he learn?  Mentioned: Game Recap: They Changed the Rules, Episode 262 with IM Kostya Kavutskiy 34:00- What is Nelson’s advice for limiting OTB mistakes? 35:00- How is Nelson studying chess? 39:00- Does Nelson watch much chess YouTube? How long does it take him to create a video? Mentioned: Nelson’s most popular video: 35 Vital Chess Principles  46:00-  Perpetual Chess is brought to you in part by Chessable.com. Check out all of their latest offerings here: New Chess Courses Online - For All Levels - Chessable.com 47:00- Nelson’s scholastic highlight was winning the prestigious Denker tournament of State High School Champions. What does he remember about that victory?  52:00- Does Nelson have any favorite chess books? Mentioned: Winning Chess Endings, Fundamental Chess Openings  55:00- Nelson’s 3 tips for chess content creators.  57:00- Nelson’s 3 chess improvement tips  56:00- Thanks to Nelson for joining the show!  Subscribe to his YouTube channel here.  Subscribe to his Patreon here. Check out his courses here.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

22 Feb 20221h 1min

This week’s Adult Improver Edition of Perpetual Chess features NM Jeremy Kane:   Blitz specialist, USCF Master, Curriculum Director for Chess.com, and the author of the new book, The Next to Last Mistake.   Jeremy gained nearly 200 points in his 20s, and has a peak USCF rating of 2389.  Because he is the dad of two young kids, Jeremy has recently  turned his attention to online blitz. Jeremy shares some great tips for how to adapt your game to faster online play. Jeremy’s chess.com blitz rating is usually around 2700, so clearly he has some expertise on this subject. Jeremy is also a chess bibliophile, and a former scholastic teacher, so he is full of good chess- improvement advice and recommendations for chess players of all ages and experience levels. As always, relevant links and timestamps can be found below.  0:00- To Keep up with Ben’s blog:  Follow me Chess.com  Follow me on LiChess 03:00- For those rated under 1500 online, what is the best way to spend one’s chess improvement time?  Mentioned: Adult Improver Episode 241 with FM Peter Giannatos, GM David Smerdon’s The Complete Chess Swindler  09:00- How did Jeremy ascend from 2200 to 2390 USCF in his 20s?  Mentioned: Silver Knights Chess Academy  14:00- A few of Jeremy’s favorite game-collection books. Mentioned: My Great Predecessor’s, Seven Deadly Chess Sins, Chess for Zebras, Young Sam Sevian vs. Greg Shahade video, The Road to Chess Improvement  22:00- Perpetual Chess is brought to you in part by Better Help. You can see some online reviews here, and if you sign up, use this link to save 10%: https://www.betterhelp.com/chess 22:45- Perpetual Chess is brought to you in part by Chessable.com. Check out all of their latest offerings here: New Chess Courses Online - For All Levels in all - Chessable.com 23:30- How has Jeremy adapted his game to online play, and blitz in particular?  Mentioned: IM Kostya Kavutskiy’s Video on the Tromp Wall  29:00- For what rating level is blitz a useful training tool? (plus more blitz tips)  Mentioned: GM Daniel Naroditsky Article The Blitz Manifesto  34:30- Aimchess has a brand new feature called Aimchess recap! It summarizes your year in chess a la Spotify wrapped. If you subscribe to Aimchess, be sure to use code Perpetual30 to save 30%.  Check it out here: https://www.aimchess.com/recap 35:30- Patreon mailbag question: “As a dad, has it become difficult to stay motivated for chess?”  38:30- Patreon mailbag question: “What is Jeremy’s advice for a fellow dad who is working on chess while tired?” Mentioned: Gotham Chess YouTube, Kostya Kavutskiy YouTube 43:00- The Chess dot bomb sponsored segment is brought to you by Chess.com! Jeremy and I discuss the Lessons feature which contains interactive instruction for players of all levels. Here are a few of Jeremy’s favorites:  GM Eugene Perelshteyn’s “Every Gambit Refuted” -  GM Fabiano Caruana’s “Road to the World Championship”  GM Shak Mamedyarov’s Games vs. World Champions  IM Kostya Kavutskiy’s - “How to be Materialistic in Chess”  If you decide to upgrade to a premium membership at Chess.com, you can help support the pod by signing up using this link (https://go.chess.com/Perpetual). 46:30- Patreon mailbag question: “Why are the Chess.com Puzzle ratings sometimes so high?” 48:30- Patreon mailbag question: “What are some tips for teaching chess to kids?” Mentioned: https://www.chesskid.com/classroom-planner, Chesskid Curriculm PDF- Chess Steps books  55:30- Patreon mailbag question: “Does Jeremy agree with the advice that one shouldn’t resign?”  Mentioned: Episode 48 with Jonathan Corbblah  59:30- How does Jeremy recommend budgeting study time?  1:00:30- Thanks to Jeremy for joining the show. Here is how you can keep up with him:  Jeremy’s book is called The Next to Last Mistake , edited by Ali Thompson.  You can follow Jeremy on Twitter here You can email Jeremy at Jeremy at chess dot com    Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

15 Feb 20221h 7min

GM SImon William, aka “The Ginger GM”  is an entertaining and popular commentator, YouTube Creator, Twitch streamer, and, of course, prolific Chessable course creator (often collaborating with IM Richard Palisser). Simon also recently launched a chess platform, called GChess, which allows you to store and analyze your games and to work on openings using many popular chess resources. It had been 5 years since I had done a long-form interview with SImon, so it was great to catch up with him on the topics of his OTB plans, current opening trends, the British chess scene, his latest Chessable course, and, of course, many amusing anecdotes from Simon’s decades around top-level chess. Please read on for lots more details, timestamps, and links.  Prior Interviews with GM Simon Williams:  Perpetual Chess Episode 5 with GM Simon Williams How to Chess 06- How to Know When to Attack with GM Simon Williams  0:00- Simon will be playing in the Reykjavik Open in April. Why did he choose that tournament?   How does he prepare for it?  07:00- What was Simon’s approach to earning the GM title?  Mentioned: Episode 228 with GM Ben FInegold, Episode 217- “IM to GM” Special 14:00- As an up and coming player, what was Simon’s approach to chess improvement? 17:00- Patreon mailbag question:  ” How did Simon pick the Classical Dutch and the Iron English as staples of his repertoire?” 21:00- Patreon mailbag question: “Who is Simon’s favorite player ever?” 22:00- Patreon mailbag question: “Favorite tournament venue?” Mentioned: British Chess Championships, Hastings  24:30- Perpetual Chess is brought to you in part by Chessable.com. Check out all of their latest offerings here: New Chess Courses Online - For All Levels- Chessable.com 25:00- How did the idea come to be for Simon and IM Richard Palliser’s course on the British Grand Prix Attack? What else is Simon working on?  32:00- What did Simon learn about openings from chatting with Super GM Daniil Dubov? What did Simon think of the opening choices in the World Championship?  36:00- What strikes Simon about the chess talent of GM Luke McShane?  Mentioned: McShane-Cheparinov 2009, GM Michael Adams  40:00- Patreon mailbag question: “How does Simon see the state of British chess?”  Mentioned: GM Ravi Haria, IM Marcus Harvey  45:00- Patreon mailbag question: “What was it like to visit the Mindsports center in London, and to drink a flaming sambuco with Alexandra Botez?”  47:00- Aimchess has a brand new feature called Aimchess recap! It summarizes your year in chess a la Spotify wrapped. Check it out here:  https://www.aimchess.com/recap 48:00- Patreon mailbag question: Simon has launched the website Gchess.com recently. A patreon supporter asks, “What is the vision for this chess site?”  55:00- Patreon mailbag question: “Any chance Gchess could link to books that mention specific positions?”  59:00- Patreon mailbag question: ‘What are Simon’s thoughts on the Elephant Gambit and the Papa-Ticulat Gambit?”  Mentioned: Howell-Williams 2007, Episode 176 with GM David Howell  1:04:00- Any Magnus stories? Mentioned: The Hillbilly Attack 1:08:00- Simon is a small investor in The Good Knight Pub in Oslo. How did that come up?  If you would like to help support Perpetual Chess, you can do so here: Ben Johnson is creating Perpetual Chess Podcast | Patreon Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

8 Feb 20221h 16min

This week I am joined by the founder of the Berkeley Chess School (BCS), Elizabeth Shaughnessy. The Berkeley Chess School is a California based non-profit that has taught chess to approximately 250,000 kids over the decades and has taught future grandmasters like Sam Shankland, and Hans Niemann. At 84 years of age, Elizabeth is still razor sharp and competing regularly in tournament chess! We talked about how chess and life have evolved since she founded BCS in 1981, with a particular emphasis on the Queen’s Gambit and whether she thinks the show can help grow interest in chess among women. Elizabeth has so much wisdom to share from a lifetime as a chess competitor, teacher, organizer and mom, it was great to get to chat with her. Please read on for more details and timestamps.  0:00- How does chess help kids?  Mentioned: Growth from Failure Interview with Elizabeth Shaughnessy, Cyrus/Asbergers  5:30- How did the Berkeley Chess School begin back in 1981? How has it grown over the years?  12:30- BCS has taught future GMs Sam Shankland, Hans Niemann and Christopher Yoo among other future chess stars. Did they intentionally try to cultivate champion players?  19:00- Perpetual Chess is brought to you in part by Chessable.com. Check out their latest offerings here: New Chess Courses Online - For All Levels- Chessable.com 20:00- What is Elizabeth’s impression of The Queen’s Gambit? Has Elizabeth subsequently seen an increased interest in chess from women? Mentioned: Queen of Katwe, The Polgar Sisters, Jen Shahade’s FAQ page 45:30- Perpetual Chess is brought to you in part by Aimchess.com! If you subscribe, be sure to use the code Perpetual30 to save 30%. Check out their yearly recap here:  https://www.aimchess.com/recap 46:30- Patreon Mailbag Question: “What is Elizabeth’s favorite opening to teach to kids? 50:00- Patreon Mailbag Question: “What experience has Elizabeth had with using chess as a tool to stave off dementia?”  Mentioned: Episode 145 with WIM Beatriz Marinello 52:30- Patreon Mailbag Question: “What is the state of the BCS building renovation? How does the club foster a welcoming environment?”  1:01:00- What advice would Elizabeth give to anyone thinking of starting a chess club or academy?  Mentioned: Episode 201 with FM Peter Giannatos  1:07:00- What role did legendary IM George Koltanowski play in founding the BCS?  1:13:00- Thanks so much to Elizabeth for joining the podcast.  You can support the Berkeley Chess School here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

1 Feb 20221h 18min

Chess Books Recaptured is back to discuss one of my favorite chess books ever, Mikhail Shereshevsky’s Endgame Strategy. Unlike a technical manual, this book simply shows some of the greatest endgame conversions of all time, and pulls together themes from the play, such as “do not hurry,” and “the principal of two weaknesses.” It is an intermediate to advanced book, best suited to those rated over 1600 USCF/FIDE. Joining me to guest co-host is my fellow chess podcaster, Dr. Kevin Scull. Kevin is an avid chess enthusiast who returned to the game in recent years. He has been working through Endgame Strategy in recent months and believes it has “transformed his game." Please tune in to the pod to find out why, as well as to the usual historical context, favorite chapters and lessons, and more. Please read on for more details and timestamps.  0:00- We dive right into Kevin’s history with the book, and discuss what chess experience level is best suited to this book.  Mentioned: Silman’s Complete Endgame Course, Capablanca’s Best Chess Endings, 100 Endgames You Must Know 9:00- What is the “principle of two weaknesses?” 15:00- We discuss another key precept of the book- “do not hurry.” 18:00- Perpetual Chess is brought to you in part by Aimchess.com! If you subscribe, be sure to use the code Perpetual30 to save 30%. Check out their yearly recap here:  https://www.aimchess.com/recap 19:00- We share a bit about Mikhail Shereshevsky’s bio, the background of the book and its few minor flaws. Mentioned: Lots of discussion of Endgame Strategy on The Facebook Chess Book Collectors Group  32:00- Perpetual Chess is brought to you in part by Chessable.com. Check out their latest offerings here: New Chess Courses Online - For All Levels- Chessable.com 34:00- What are our favorite parts of the book? Least favorites?  Mentioned: GM Fabiano Caruana, GM Magnus Carlsen, Episode 195 with GM Keith Arkell, Fred Wilson Books, GM Edmar Mednis Endgame Books here, Timeless Techniques by GM Sahaj Grover and FM Daniel Barrish, Small Steps to Giant Improvement, Smyslov-Aronin 1951, Episode 261, “Master to IM”  58:00- Thanks so much to Kevin for helping out this month. As an honorarium I will make a donation to the Berkeley Chess School.  Mentioned: Under the Surface, Episode 239 with GM Jan Markos  Be sure to subscribe to Chess Journeys on your favored podcast app. Chess Journeys Episode 28 with Neal Bruce. Follow Kevin on Twitch  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

28 Jan 20221h 8min