The Great Simplification with Nate Hagens10 Sep 2025

Why We Need Forests: Their Vital Role in Climate Dynamics, Rain, and The Biotic Pump with Anastassia Makarieva

To best understand this episode, please watch this ~2 minute video on the biotic pump.

It's widely known that Earth's forests provide home to countless numbers of species, act as a vast sink for carbon, and provide much of the food, materials, and clean water on which our societies rely. But emerging science shows us that forests may play another critical role: making rain. This theory, called the biotic pump theory, hypothesizes that instead of being passive recipients of rain, forests may actively create the conditions for precipitation over land – a premise that turns modern meteorology on its head.

In this episode, Nate is joined by physicist Anastassia Makarieva about the critical yet often overlooked role forests play in maintaining ecological balance and climate stability. Through the lens of the biotic pump theory, she highlights the importance of moisture and rainfall cycles, the dangers of ecosystem tipping points, and the escalating risks of deforestation. Anastassia argues that a paradigm shift is needed – one that redefines how humanity understands and manages forests in the fight against global heating.

What would climate models reveal if they fully integrated the Biotic Pump Theory? How might policies protecting against deforestation evolve if societies recognized the irreplaceable role forests play in how water moves on land? And beyond policy, how might reconnecting with our deep interdependence on forests help us rediscover a richer connection to ourselves as individuals?

(Conversation recorded on July 9th, 2025)

About Anastassia Makarieva:

Dr. Anastassia Makarieva is a Russian atmospheric physicist and senior researcher at the Petersburg Nuclear Physics Institute. She obtained her Ph.D. in atmospheric physics from St. Petersburg State University in 2000. Makarieva is best known for co-developing the "biotic pump" theory alongside the late Professor Victor Gorshkov. The theory posits that forests play a crucial role in driving atmospheric moisture transport, effectively influencing rainfall patterns over land. Her work emphasizes the importance of intact forests in maintaining climate stability and has challenged conventional climate models to incorporate the dynamic role of vegetation in atmospheric processes.

Show Notes and More

Watch this video episode on YouTube

Want to learn the broad overview of The Great Simplification in 30 minutes? Watch our Animated Movie.

---

Support The Institute for the Study of Energy and Our Future

Join our Substack newsletter

Join our Hylo group and connect with other listeners

Det här avsnittet är hämtat från ett öppet RSS-flöde och publiceras inte av Podme. Det kan innehålla reklam.

Avsnitt(405)

A Legacy Worth Celebrating? Reflecting on 250 Years of the American Experiment | Frankly 149

As America marks its 250th birthday, Nate takes a moment to step outside of the celebrations to seek out a wider boundary perspective on this week's holiday. He poses the question of whether the Unite...

2 Juli 20min

Mordor to the Long Repair: How Might Daily Life Feel in the Next Decades? | How to Think About the Future Part 4, Frankly 148

This week, Nate continues his "How to Think About the Future" series, where he invites listeners to imagine what it's like to live in different versions of the reality that lies ahead. In today's edit...

26 Juni 32min

We Weren't Expecting This: What Does a Super El Niño Mean For the Climate? with Tad Patzek

This year's projected Super El Niño forming in the Pacific could become one of the strongest climate oscillations in over a century. As regions prepare for the effects, and continue to adapt to extrem...

24 Juni 1h 25min

How to Play 5D Chess: It's Not What You Think | Frankly 147

In this week's Frankly, Nate explores a pattern of thinking that permeates so many of our conversations: we often decide what we think before we've fully heard what's being said. Using the metaphor of...

19 Juni 18min

No More Dystopian Stories: How to See a Future Worth Living In with Rob Hopkins

Self-fulfilling prophecies; manifestations; the Oedipus Effect: Humanity has long had an intuition that the stories we tell ourselves the most are often the stories we make come true. Science has foun...

17 Juni 1h 35min

The Ultimate Alternative: Are You Okay With Nuclear Warfare? | Frankly 146

This week's Frankly is another in Nate's recurring series Uncomfortable Questions for Unsettled Times, in which he poses questions about our shared future. Today, he uses headlines regarding a potenti...

16 Juni 23min

The U.S. Can't Back Down: The Strait of Hormuz Closure Is Messier Than You Think with Michael Every

This episode was recorded Tuesday, June 9th, before the current 'deal' was floated. Given world events, we decided to post this episode immediately as a special release, and deal or not, this conversa...

12 Juni 1h 25min

Why 'Community' Fails: Everyone Wants a Village, Nobody Wants to Be a Villager with Nora Bateson, Jonathan Goldsmith & Lucas Jackson | RR 26

Many of us lack meaningful community in our lives, either from a complete absence of relationships or simply the sense of disconnection from those around us. In response, a growing number of people at...

10 Juni 1h 33min