50. Dr. Rachel Kleinfeld — A Savage Order: How the World’s Deadliest Countries Can Forge a Path to Security

50. Dr. Rachel Kleinfeld — A Savage Order: How the World’s Deadliest Countries Can Forge a Path to Security

In this episode of the Science Salon Podcast, Michael Shermer speaks with Dr. Rachel Kleinfeld, a senior fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, where she focuses on issues of rule of law, security, and governance in post-conflict countries, fragile states, and states in transition. As the founding CEO of the Truman National Security Project, she spent nearly a decade leading a movement of national security, political, and military leaders working to promote people and policies that strengthen security, stability, rights, and human dignity in America and around the world.

In 2011, former secretary of state Hillary Clinton appointed Kleinfeld to the Foreign Affairs Policy Board, which advises the secretary of state quarterly, a role she served through 2014. Dr. Kleinfeld has consulted on rule of law reform for the World Bank, the European Union, the OECD, the Open Society Institute, and other institutions, and has briefed multiple government agencies in the United States and abroad.

She is the author of Advancing the Rule of Law Abroad: Next Generation Reform (Carnegie, 2012), which was chosen by Foreign Affairs magazine as one of the best foreign policy books of 2012. Named one of the top 40 Under 40 Political Leaders in America by Time magazine in 2010, Kleinfeld has been featured in the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, Fox News, and other national television, radio, and print media.

Her new book is A Savage Order: How the World’s Deadliest Countries Can Forge a Path to Security. In this conversation we discuss her new book, specifically:

  • What it says about human nature that people so easily turn to violence when there is not central authority.
  • What she learned about law and order growing up in libertarian Alaska, and how she got interested in studying violence in failed states around the world.
  • Why studying history and reading the classics (like Thucydides) was the best preparation she had for her job.
  • Lessons from The Godfather on what happens when governments become corrupt—strong men promising security and protection from corruption rise up.
  • Pace the Godfather, what happened in the Republic of Georgia after the fall of the Soviet Union, and why violence spiked and then declined.
  • Why dictators like Saddam Hussein do not actually keep violence down in their countries because state-sponsored violence goes unrecorded.
  • Her experiences living and working in Russia and other countries undergoing turmoil.
  • Putin and Russian today and what they want.
  • Columbia as a model of a failed state and what the U.S. did there to help turn things around.
  • How the Wild West of the United States was tamed.
  • Why violence is higher in the Southern United States, and why lynching and other hate crimes were driven more by political power and expediency than by racial hatred (data shows that such crimes peaked before elections).
  • How the 21st century is so different from the 20th century’s battle of “isms”: communism, socialism, Leninism, Stalinism, Trotskyism, liberalism, individualism, idealism, humanism, etc. We’re living in a different world today.
  • We’re about to colonize Mars and establish a new society there. What parts of government should we take with us there, and what parts should we leave behind? That is, what have we learned over the millennia in terms of good vs. bad governance.

Listen to Science Salon via iTunes, Spotify, Google Play Music, Stitcher, iHeartRadio, TuneIn, and Soundcloud.

This remote Science Salon was recorded on January 4, 2019.

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Sex Work, Ethics, and Evolutionary Psychology: What REALLY Happens on Sugar Daddy Websites?

Sex Work, Ethics, and Evolutionary Psychology: What REALLY Happens on Sugar Daddy Websites?

What is a sugar daddy, really? The answer might disturb you. Brook Urick takes us into the shadowy world of sugar dating, where young women are lured into dangerous situations under the guise of financial security. From being a would-be sugar baby to becoming the public face of SeekingArrangement, Urick unveils the unsettling truth about these platforms and their role in enabling predatory behavior. Urick’s revelations go beyond personal experience. She exposes how these websites intentionally protect exploiters, with their founder even caught in a sting operation attempting to meet a minor. With the passage of FOSTA-SESTA in 2018, making these platforms criminally liable, she questions why they still exist. Her goal? To bring public awareness and legal scrutiny to an industry built on deception and harm. Shermer and Urick discuss the realities of sugar dating, the blurred lines between sex work and exploitation, and the psychology of men and women in the industry. They explore legal and ethical debates, feminist perspectives, and societal consequences of prostitution and pornography. Urick shares her experiences at SeekingArrangement, including the dangers young women face and the website’s role in fostering systemic abuse and deception.

18 Feb 1h 45min

Half a Thousand Episodes: Still Chasing Truth

Half a Thousand Episodes: Still Chasing Truth

In our 501st episode, Michael Shermer takes a moment to reflect on his long journey with skepticism and what he learned recording half a thousand episodes of this podcast. He shares his thoughts on what it means for something to be truly “real” by comparing our personal experiences with evidence-backed facts, tackles the challenge of controversial and extraordinary claims, and even explores how mystical ideas or literary works can offer their own kind of truth.

11 Feb 37min

The Faith Deficit: Does America Need a Spiritual Backbone?

The Faith Deficit: Does America Need a Spiritual Backbone?

What happens to American democracy if Christianity is no longer able, or no longer willing, to perform the functions on which our constitutional order depends? Jonathan Rauch—a lifelong atheist—reckons candidly with both the shortcomings of secularism and the corrosion of Christianity. Thin Christianity, as Rauch calls the mainline church, has been unable to inspire and retain believers. Worse, a Church of Fear has distorted white evangelicalism in ways that violate the tenets of both Jesus and James Madison. What to do? For answers, Rauch looks to a new generation of religious thinkers, as well as to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which has placed the Constitution at the heart of its spiritual teachings. In this timely critique Rauch addresses secular Americans who think Christianity can be abandoned, and Christian Americans who blame secular culture for their grievances. The two must work together, he argues, to confront our present crisis. He calls on Christians to recommit to the teachings of their faith that align with Madison, not MAGA, and to understand that liberal democracy, far from being oppressive, is uniquely protective of religious freedom. At the same time, he calls on secular liberals to understand that healthy religious institutions are crucial to the survival of the liberal state. Jonathan Rauch is a senior fellow in the Governance Studies program at the Brookings Institution in Washington DC and a contributing writer of The Atlantic. His new book is Cross Purposes: Christianity’s Broken Bargain with Democracy.

4 Feb 1h 29min

The Psychology of Serial Killers

The Psychology of Serial Killers

Dr. Rachel Toles, a licensed forensic psychologist, delves into the psychology of criminals, addressing the motivations behind some of the world’s most notorious killers. Her expertise spans trauma, addiction, and impulse control, culminating in her upcoming U.S. theater tour, The Psychology of a Murderer. Through captivating case studies, Toles sheds light on the dark corners of human behavior. In her show and forthcoming book, Toles examines the pathways leading ordinary people to commit extraordinary violence. She explores infamous cases, including Jeffrey Dahmer and Charles Manson, while revealing a proprietary formula for understanding evil. Her work intertwines cutting-edge psychology with gripping storytelling, leaving audiences both disturbed and enlightened. Shermer and Toles discuss the psychology of mass murderers, causes of evil, and the fascination with true crime. They analyze infamous killers like Dahmer, the Menendez Brothers, and Manson, exploring traits like narcissism and psychopathy. Topics include experiments like Milgram’s and the Stanford Prison Study, factors driving violence, and why ordinary individuals can commit atrocities.

28 Jan 1h 59min

What if Death Isn’t the End? The Science of Forever

What if Death Isn’t the End? The Science of Forever

Just as surgeons once believed pain was good for their patients, some argue today that death brings meaning to life. But given humans rarely live beyond a century (while certain whales can thrive for over two hundred years) it’s hard not to see our biological limits as profoundly unfair. No wonder then that most people nearing death wish they still had more time. Yet, with ever-advancing science, will the ends of our lives always loom so close? Ariel Zeleznikow-Johnston is a neuroscientist at Monash University, Australia, where he investigates methods for characterizing the nature of conscious experiences. His research interests range from the decline, preservation and rescue of cognitive function at different stages of the lifespan.

21 Jan 1h 30min

What Are We Really Fighting Over? Understanding Outrage Through Moral Psychology

What Are We Really Fighting Over? Understanding Outrage Through Moral Psychology

In this episode, Kurt Gray offers a groundbreaking perspective on the moral mind, challenging the assumption that liberals and conservatives have radically different moral foundations. Drawing on the latest science, he reveals that everyone’s moral judgments stem from feelings of vulnerability to harm. We all care about protecting ourselves and others, but conflict arises when we perceive harm differently. Gray explores how moral outrage is triggered when we disagree about who the “real” victim is, whether in political debates, personal conflicts, or even everyday situations.

14 Jan 1h 49min

How to Start a New Country

How to Start a New Country

It’s clear states, borders, and countries constantly evolve. But how do countries form? And what does it take to start a new one? In this episode, Michael interviews Erick Brimen, founder of Prospera, a project dedicated to creating Special Economic Zones that foster economic growth through free-market governance. Brimen shares insights into the challenges of governance in developing nations, lessons learned from Venezuela’s economic collapse (despite the country having the world’s largest oil reserves), and successful governance models in places like Dubai (a small desert fishing and pearl diving village until the early 1970s) and Hong Kong (under British rule until 1997).

7 Jan 1h

How the Greatest Investors Win in Life and Markets

How the Greatest Investors Win in Life and Markets

William Green delves into the lives of iconic investors like Buffett, Munger, and Templeton, unraveling how their approaches extend beyond financial success. These super-investors possess unique skills such as rigorous thinking, resilience, and intuition. Through years of interviews, Green reveals how their principles can improve decision-making, manage risks, and help us thrive in uncertain environments. William Green has written for top publications like Time, Forbes, and The Economist, and edited Time’s Asian and European editions. He coauthored several books, including Guy Spier’s The Education of a Value Investor. Born in London, he studied English at Oxford and earned a journalism master’s at Columbia. Now based in New York, he lives with his family. His latest book is Richer, Wiser, Happier: How the World’s Greatest Investors Win in Markets and Life. Shermer and Green discuss the financial literacy of Americans, the mechanics of wealth creation, and the psychology behind investment decisions. They cover the stock market, the importance of resilience, and the relationship between money, happiness, and luck. The conversation includes wisdom from legendary investors, the power of compound interest, and practical strategies for financial independence.

21 Dec 20241h 48min

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