286: A Living Language for Cider
Cider Chat1 Sep 2021

286: A Living Language for Cider

The quest to find the Language of Cider

Richie Brady is a graduate of the Wine & Spirit Education Trust (WSET) who also happens to have a love of cider. This scholarly Irishman used his shelter in place time during Covid to take a deep dive into cider's history on the Emerald Isle where the first known writings on cider dates back to 1115! On this journey to he has found that cider and wine both share a similar fate - there is no absolute language to describe the fermented juice of apples and grapes.

The questions become one of defining "How to taste cider" and as such how does one delineate and then describe the wide range of cider styles. He found that the lexicon of cider like wine still has a long way to go as it develops a vocabulary.

In short, there is no common lexicon or language for cider.

In this chat we discuss:

The Brehon Laws which are first set down on parchment in the 7th century and were named after wanderings lawyers, the Brehons. The Brehon Laws include details on the top trees to honor known as the "Lords of the Woods".

And yes, one of those Top Trees was the Apple. And the law detailed that if you damaged an apple tree there was a fine of 2 cows that were milking and a third cow! Dependent upon the damage done there were additional fines, such as planting an apple tree of the same variety

All this deep digging into the history of Ireland and cider was in preparation for his thesis for a Masters in Gastronomy and Food Studies from Technological University Dublin (TUDublin ). Besides the Brehon Laws he also found historical writings from The Gentlemen's Society of Dublin, which then became the Royal Society. The Society's writings date back to 1737 and he found that they had a penchant for cider! Their love of cider was so keen and held in such high esteem that members noted how they gifted each other with their fine cider.

Tracing a Language for Cider in Ireland

The Society's journals classified cider into 3 different styles.

1. Summer Cider

  • "Described as a weak juice from summer apples that has no body and therefore barely deserves the name cider"
  • However, this cider was still drunk and recommended to age for 6 months

2. Autumn Cider

Apple varieties

  • Pearmain
  • Red Streak
  • Golden Pippin - palatable liquor but with too much sweetness
  • High raisin taste and keeps tolerably well

Age for a year

3. Wildings and Harsh winter apples

  • "To attain this should be the aim to all those who deal in cider/"
  • Described as a "roughest kind of cider" that is mellowed by age

Age in barrel for 3-5 years.

Example of varieties

  • Cockagee
  • Burlington crab
  • Kendrick
  • Royal Wilding
Developing Language

Wine vs Cider

  • Richie proposed that because wine is seen as something that can age well and continues to develop in the bottle it encouraged people to talk about wine more, thus the language of wine developed.
  • Whereas despite the fact that some ciders like wine also develops and ages well in a bottle, cider for the most part has been made to drink sooner than later.

Interestingly, even great wine writers like Jancis Robinson who wrote the highly touted Oxford companion to Wine describes the wine lexicon "in its infancy."

And French oenologist and researcher Émile Peynaud says,

"We tasters to some extent feel betrayed by language"

How to create a language for Cider

  • Begin with agreeing to a specific style
    • agree upon the taxonomy of cider - co-fermented cider, heirloom, farmhouse...

Richie proposes that we begin by:

1. Approaching the glass

  • What is the profile of the cider in the glass
    • What is the acidity
    • Tannin? What is the nature of the tannin
    • The sweetness

2. If 12 ciders have a similar profile, put them in a group together

3. What would we name this group

  • Staying focused on the taste profile

4. Define rules and put it in a style - create rules

These simple steps on paper are a bit more complex as it will require compromise between many different parties world wide. Luckily patience is something that cider and wine teaches to makers and consumers alike.

Contact for Richie Brady

Follow Richie on Twitter @2mindtime

Mentions in this Chat

Australian Cider Producers

  • Small Acres Cyder
  • 3 Sons Cider
  • Northwest Cider Club - cider from the Pacific Northwest shipped directly to YOU!
    • Try the elevated box of cider, give cider as a gift that keeps giving!

Help Support Cider Chat Please donate today. Help keep the chat thriving!

Find this episode and all episodes at the page for Cider Chat's podcasts.

Avsnitt(499)

480: Holiday Cider Gift Guide 2025 and Playing with Pommeau

480: Holiday Cider Gift Guide 2025 and Playing with Pommeau

00:00 Introduction and Podcast Overview 00:32 French Pronunciation Fun 02:27 Holiday Gift Ideas for 2025 02:59 Cider Chat News and Updates 04:42 Listener Stories and Experiences 07:49 Upcoming UK Cide...

3 Dec 202546min

479: New York Cider Fest | Audio Snapshots

479: New York Cider Fest | Audio Snapshots

New York Cider Fest 2025 brought together makers and enthusiasts for an unforgettable day at City Winery Manhattan. In this special collection of on-the-floor recordings, Cider Chat® captures Audio Sn...

26 Nov 202551min

478: Pommeau: What Happens When a French Classic Lands on U.S. Labels

478: Pommeau: What Happens When a French Classic Lands on U.S. Labels

What is Pommeau? Pommeau is a: fortified blend of fresh apple must (unfermented) and apple brandy (typically Calvados in Normandy or Lambig in Brittany). The unfermented apple juice and brandy are com...

19 Nov 202551min

477: 2025 Ultimate Cider Pairing Guide for Thanksgiving

477: 2025 Ultimate Cider Pairing Guide for Thanksgiving

Learn how to pick the right Cider and Perry for every dish on the Thanksgiving table. This week we are not chasing brand names. We are building flavor intuition. Consider Thanksgiving not as one singl...

12 Nov 202539min

476: Be Medieval, Rack that Cider| Secondary Fermentation

476: Be Medieval, Rack that Cider| Secondary Fermentation

How to clarify, stabilize, and finish cider the right way The Purpose of Secondary Fermentation when Making Cider Once the apple juice has started fermented and it is now slowing down, it is time to r...

5 Nov 202546min

475: At the UK's National Perry Pear Centre and the Story Behind 99PINES

475: At the UK's National Perry Pear Centre and the Story Behind 99PINES

Perry making has deep roots in Gloucestershire, stretching back to the 17th century when French wine imports were cut off during the Napoleonic Wars. Local farmers turned to their own fruit, and the r...

29 Okt 202543min

474: The Romance of It All | The Temperleys of Somerset Cider & Brandy

474: The Romance of It All | The Temperleys of Somerset Cider & Brandy

At the base of Burrow Hill life moves at the pace of apples and oak. Here, Julian and daughter Matilda Temperley are testment to the value of family for carry a business such as cider and brandy forwa...

22 Okt 20251h 9min

473: Tiny Bubbles | How to Make a Pét Nat Cider

473: Tiny Bubbles | How to Make a Pét Nat Cider

What makes a Pét Nat cider sparkle naturally and how is it connected to the rural method you might have heard about in the UK? In this episode, we take a practical look at: What Pét Nat cider is...

15 Okt 202544min

Populärt inom Samhälle & Kultur

podme-dokumentar
en-mork-historia
gynning-berg
p3-dokumentar
svenska-fall
mardromsgasten
skaringer-nessvold
aftonbladet-krim
killradet
creepypodden-med-jack-werner
rattsfallen
spar
flashback-forever
hor-har
aterforeningen-en-podcast-med-thorsten-och-richard-flinck-av-sigge-eklund
vad-blir-det-for-mord
historiska-brott
rysarpodden
kod-katastrof
rss-mer-an-bara-morsa