Interview with Worobey, Andersen & Holmes: The Lab Leak
Decoding the Gurus11 Maalis 2023

Interview with Worobey, Andersen & Holmes: The Lab Leak

The question of the SARS-CoV-2 origin: whether it was a zoonotic spillover from a wet market, or an engineered virus that escaped from the Wuhan Institute of Virology, is seemingly a debate that will never go away. Most interestingly, while scientists with specific domain expertise seem to be building a consensus towards the former, public opinion appears to be trending towards the latter. This delta between expert and popular opinion has been helped along by the frothy discourse in mainstream and social media, with most figures that we cover in this podcast dead-set certain that it came from a lab.

Most recently, Sam Harris hosted on his Making Sense podcast the molecular biologist Alina Chan and. science writer Matt Ridley, spokespersons for the lab leak case, and authors of "Viral: The Search for the Origin of COVID-19". To a layperson, and certainly to Sam, they put forward a rather watertight case. Intrinsic to the arguments advanced were the ideas that (a) experts in the area were refusing to engage with and unable to answer their arguments, and (b) a strong implication that there is a conspiracy of silence among virologists not just in China but internationally, to suppress the lab leak hypothesis.

So, as a case study in the public understanding of science, it seems like a pretty pickle indeed. To help unravel the pickle(?) in this somewhat special episode, we are joined by three virologists who are amply qualified to address the topic; both in terms of the evidence and whether they are involved in a conspiracy of silence.

Kristian Andersen is a Professor in the Department of Immunology and Microbiology at Scripps Research. He focuses on the relationship between host and pathogen, using sequencing, fieldwork, experimentation, and computational biology methods. He has spearheaded large international collaborations investigating the emergence, spread and evolution of deadly pathogens, including SARS-CoV-2, Zika virus, Ebola virus, West Nile virus, and Lassa virus.

Prof Michael Worobey, is the head of the department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology at the University of Arizona. His work focuses on the genomes of viruses, using molecular and computational biology, to understand the origins, emergence and control of pandemics. Recently, his interdisciplinary work on SARS-CoV-2 has shed light on how and when the virus originated and ignited the COVID-19 pandemic in China and how SARS-CoV-2 emerged and took hold in North America and Europe.

Prof Edward "Eddie" Holmes, is an NHMRC Leadership Fellow & Professor of Virology at the Faculty of Medicine and Health at Sydney University, a member of the Sydney Institute for Infectious Diseases, a Fellow of the Australian Academy of Science and a Fellow of The Royal Society. He is known for his work on the evolution and emergence of infectious diseases, particularly the mechanisms by which RNA viruses jump species boundaries to emerge in humans and other animals. He has studied the emergence and spread of such pathogens as SARS-CoV-2, influenza virus, dengue virus, HIV, hepatitis C virus, myxoma virus, RHDV and Yersinia pestis.

All three researchers have specialist expertise and decades of experience directly applicable to tracking viruses and their adaption to humans, and, fair to say, are fairly eminent in their fields (Eddie in particular!). Further, they are among the relatively small set of researchers collecting and analysing primary evidence on the origins of SARS-CoV-2, communicating their findings in top-ranked journals, including Nature and Science.

In this episode, Chris and Matt put to this trio of Professors the claims raised by lab leak advocates to see what these (damn conspirators) experts have to say for themselves.

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Special Episode: Interview with Thi Nguyen, a Gurometer's Guru

Special Episode: Interview with Thi Nguyen, a Gurometer's Guru

Today we talk to C. Thi Nguyen, a philosophy professor at University of Utah. He has some excellent insights into the kind of discourse that *feels* like it gives us insight, that wonderful 'aha' moment. Basically, what happens when unscrupulous actors aim to optimise that feeling - putting aside concerns as to whether or not it's the real thing.Thi has previously studied 'moral outrage porn', which is a bit like food porn, but for your emotions. You might say "X-porn" is any material that gives us the fascimile of the thing, without having to put in the hard yards of actually doing the thing.You might also say there's such a thing as 'insight porn' and maybe that's what Gurus deliver! Matt and Chris feel like they got some real insights (touch wood) from their chat with Thi and they hope you do too!--------------------------------More from Thi Nguyen:Thi writes about many things, including echo chambers, epistemic bubbles and the seductive feeling of clarity. A free preview of the first chapter of Thi's Games bookMoral outrage pornThe op-ed version of moral outrage pornThe echo chambers paperHow Twitter Gamifies CommunicationRecommendation from Thi: The best book on Echo ChambersAnother recommendation: A great recent book arguing for the large-scale misinformation thesis: and it’s open access.Thi's appearance on ETV pod discussing Cheap Talk.

29 Tammi 20211h 37min

Douglas Murray: Can indulgent dinner conversation save OUR civilisation?

Douglas Murray: Can indulgent dinner conversation save OUR civilisation?

Douglas Murray is a British conservative columnist, social pundit, and veteran culture warrior famed for his biting wit and eloquent intellectual speech. But just how much of that is actually down to him having a posh British accent and a tendency to rant about whatever 'bloody' topic he's took a fancy to? Join Matt and Chris for their latest therapy session as they try to process what they've done to their brains by listening to an indulgent and meandering 4.5 hour conversation between Douglas and the IDW's über guru Eric Weinstein. Along the way you will learn the *real* truth about the coronavirus, the value of memorising Shakespearian sonnets, how embarrassing it is to eat bats, and just how sacred dinner tables actually are. ...GUFFAW...LinksThe Portal Episode 41: Douglas Murray- Heroism 2020: Defence of Our Civilization

22 Tammi 20212h 46min

Special Episode: Calibrating the Gurometer

Special Episode: Calibrating the Gurometer

Chris and Matt take a break from examining the endless stream of Guru galaxy brain takes to offer their own and calibrate their newly minted Gurometer.The Gurometer is composed of 10 key characteristics of guruosity which the decoders will be using to score the Gurus in future episodes.Listeners will learn about important concepts, like science hipsterism and pseudo-profound bullshit, and discover just how bad both Chris and Matt are at segways!LinksThe Gurometer 'current draft' Google DocGretchen's Blog Review

8 Tammi 20211h 21min

Contrapoints: Making Philosophy Fabulous Again

Contrapoints: Making Philosophy Fabulous Again

Natalie Wynn is kind of a big deal. Her YouTube channel Contrapoints explores not only philosophy, but also politics and social issues. Praised by august publications such as the New Yorker and the Atlantic, there's little doubt that she has her finger on the pulse of contemporary internet culture (and its wars). The production values, costumes, and set dressings are all a sight to behold... and completely invisible on this podcast.Nevertheless, armed with a menagerie of alter-egos, Contrapoints does delve into some pretty deep waters and has garnered quite a cult following, despite (or perhaps because of) her self-deprecating humour and refusal to take herself too seriously.So, what is going on here, behind the cat eye contact lenses and elaborate costumes? Does she actually back up the insights she purports to provide with careful arguments? Will the duo decide that Contrapoints is just like Russell Brand: all style and no substance? Is her deprecating humour merely cover for a rampaging and performative ego? Will Matt ever find out where he can get his hands on that fabulous wallpaper?All these questions, and more, will be answered in this exciting new episode!LinksJustice (Part 1) VideoNew Yorker article on Contrapoints

28 Joulu 20201h 58min

Special Episode: Entering the Portal

Special Episode: Entering the Portal

Chris and Matt take a peak behind the curtain at Guru Community dynamics in the Web 2.0 era in an extended interview with Dan Gilbert, a self described 'Discord creature'. Dan provides insights from his long term participation in Eric Weinstein's 'Unofficial Portal' Discord and reveals the mystery behind the 'mentally unstable' community member!If you ever wanted to learn about the intricate distinctions between Geometric Unity, and Geometric Marginalism or the ill fated outcome of Eric's 'Experts only' forum... now is your chance.We will be back next week with our regular episode on Contrapoints.Dan's apology song to EricFollow Dan on Twitter (@thebadstats)Episode Art used with permission of Michael M. AKA Pineapplemikel

18 Joulu 20201h 27min

Scott Adams: Chris and Matt Go to Hell

Scott Adams: Chris and Matt Go to Hell

Scott Adams, creator of Dilbert, has since written self-help books like 'Win Bigly' & 'Loserthink' and now hosts his own podcast "Coffee with Scott Adams".In mild-mannered, folksy, and avuncular style, he has a 'simultaneous sip' of coffee, a little chuckle with his listeners, and then they chat about the events of the day and how democracy is a farce and maybe a benevolent dictatorship would be preferable.Scott's fatherly advice is geared towards one thing: undermining your belief that there is any truth or justice in world - or that these things are even possible. You can trust literally nobody. All systems are corrupt, and the world works through the exercise of naked power and the manipulation of gullible rubes like you.It doesn't even matter if the libs stole the election. Trump should just go ahead and take it, if he can.Scott Adams considers himself a Master Persuader and he uses every rhetorical trick in the book to persuade you that America is so corrupt to try and get you to agree that a benevolent dictator would probably be preferable at this point.Think of the kind of 'helpful advice' that Wormtongue used to demoralise Théoden in Lord of the Rings.It's really horrible...So, if this sounds like fun to you, join Chris and Matt as they go to hell and become increasingly depressed throughout the episode!LinksCoffee with Scott Adams Episode 1197: Odds of rigging an election and getting away with it (Part 1 & Part 2)Coffee with Scott Adams Episode 1206: Watch Me Monetize My Dumbest Critics While Discussing the Election Allegations. Thank You, Critics! (Part 1 & Part 2)

10 Joulu 20202h 16min

Russell Brand: Spiritual Transcendence and Anarchic Revolution is Praxis

Russell Brand: Spiritual Transcendence and Anarchic Revolution is Praxis

Russell Brand is a hip bohemian Englishman on the path to enlightenment. And he likes the ineffable. Like, a lot. The decoders kinda like him too, despite the fact they really struggle to eff him at all. Really, Matt has no effing idea what he is babbling about most of the time, but Chris, being 'English-adjacent', seems to make a better job of it.Imagine smoking pot and talking big ideas with your precocious college room-mate at 2am in the morning. Now give him some methamphetamine, and you've got some idea of the fast-talking stream of consciousness that is Russell Brand.A pair of milquetoast moderates like Chris and Matt just aren't the right audience to properly appreciate the mystical anarchism that Brand advocates. It's probably got something to do with the limits of the bandwidth of their instruments of perception given that knowledge and wisdom are infinite and being-ness itself is.... Well, you get the idea.The lads also reveal some of the exciting progress of the podcast!In exciting news... DTG has broken into the top 100 podcasts! In the Culture and Society category... in Iceland.Regardless, come ride this unstoppable and frenetic juggernaut of mind-expanding concepts with us, and get these cosmic ideas downloaded directly into your squishy little brain!LinksJeremy Paxman and Russell Brand interview from 2013The main 'Awakening of Russell Brand' interview with Rich RollShort Video Update from Brand on 'What I think about This UK Election and Politics Today'

21 Marras 20202h 5min

Rutger Bregman: Piglets vs. Toddlers

Rutger Bregman: Piglets vs. Toddlers

Rutger Bregman is a Dutch Historian who wants to tell the world that humans are actually fundamentally kind, hunter gatherer societies contain important wisdom about how to live well, and that collectively we need to cooperate to do something about climate change and economic inequality. So, obviously there was no way Chris and Matt could let these dangerous ideas go unchallenged!Join them this week as they delve into one of Rutger's talks and address Noble Savage myths and other age old debates including whether human nature is fundamentally brutish & cruel or compassionate & kind, whether war is ancient or a recent product of societies, whether civilisation was a good idea or the worst one ever, and perhaps most importantly whether Matt could defeat a chimpanzee in one on one combat when armed with two swords.LinksThe Futures interview with Rutger examined in the episode (with transcript)Research Article that raises doubt about the domestication hypothesis especially in regards to silver foxesAn old blog post by Chris that discusses the debates over the topic of ancient war

7 Marras 20202h 14min

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