Interview with Worobey, Andersen & Holmes: The Lab Leak
Decoding the Gurus11 Maalis 2023

Interview with Worobey, Andersen & Holmes: The Lab Leak

The question of the SARS-CoV-2 origin: whether it was a zoonotic spillover from a wet market, or an engineered virus that escaped from the Wuhan Institute of Virology, is seemingly a debate that will never go away. Most interestingly, while scientists with specific domain expertise seem to be building a consensus towards the former, public opinion appears to be trending towards the latter. This delta between expert and popular opinion has been helped along by the frothy discourse in mainstream and social media, with most figures that we cover in this podcast dead-set certain that it came from a lab.

Most recently, Sam Harris hosted on his Making Sense podcast the molecular biologist Alina Chan and. science writer Matt Ridley, spokespersons for the lab leak case, and authors of "Viral: The Search for the Origin of COVID-19". To a layperson, and certainly to Sam, they put forward a rather watertight case. Intrinsic to the arguments advanced were the ideas that (a) experts in the area were refusing to engage with and unable to answer their arguments, and (b) a strong implication that there is a conspiracy of silence among virologists not just in China but internationally, to suppress the lab leak hypothesis.

So, as a case study in the public understanding of science, it seems like a pretty pickle indeed. To help unravel the pickle(?) in this somewhat special episode, we are joined by three virologists who are amply qualified to address the topic; both in terms of the evidence and whether they are involved in a conspiracy of silence.

Kristian Andersen is a Professor in the Department of Immunology and Microbiology at Scripps Research. He focuses on the relationship between host and pathogen, using sequencing, fieldwork, experimentation, and computational biology methods. He has spearheaded large international collaborations investigating the emergence, spread and evolution of deadly pathogens, including SARS-CoV-2, Zika virus, Ebola virus, West Nile virus, and Lassa virus.

Prof Michael Worobey, is the head of the department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology at the University of Arizona. His work focuses on the genomes of viruses, using molecular and computational biology, to understand the origins, emergence and control of pandemics. Recently, his interdisciplinary work on SARS-CoV-2 has shed light on how and when the virus originated and ignited the COVID-19 pandemic in China and how SARS-CoV-2 emerged and took hold in North America and Europe.

Prof Edward "Eddie" Holmes, is an NHMRC Leadership Fellow & Professor of Virology at the Faculty of Medicine and Health at Sydney University, a member of the Sydney Institute for Infectious Diseases, a Fellow of the Australian Academy of Science and a Fellow of The Royal Society. He is known for his work on the evolution and emergence of infectious diseases, particularly the mechanisms by which RNA viruses jump species boundaries to emerge in humans and other animals. He has studied the emergence and spread of such pathogens as SARS-CoV-2, influenza virus, dengue virus, HIV, hepatitis C virus, myxoma virus, RHDV and Yersinia pestis.

All three researchers have specialist expertise and decades of experience directly applicable to tracking viruses and their adaption to humans, and, fair to say, are fairly eminent in their fields (Eddie in particular!). Further, they are among the relatively small set of researchers collecting and analysing primary evidence on the origins of SARS-CoV-2, communicating their findings in top-ranked journals, including Nature and Science.

In this episode, Chris and Matt put to this trio of Professors the claims raised by lab leak advocates to see what these (damn conspirators) experts have to say for themselves.

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Contrapoints: Making Philosophy Fabulous Again

Contrapoints: Making Philosophy Fabulous Again

Natalie Wynn is kind of a big deal. Her YouTube channel Contrapoints explores not only philosophy, but also politics and social issues. Praised by august publications such as the New Yorker and the Atlantic, there's little doubt that she has her finger on the pulse of contemporary internet culture (and its wars). The production values, costumes, and set dressings are all a sight to behold... and completely invisible on this podcast.Nevertheless, armed with a menagerie of alter-egos, Contrapoints does delve into some pretty deep waters and has garnered quite a cult following, despite (or perhaps because of) her self-deprecating humour and refusal to take herself too seriously.So, what is going on here, behind the cat eye contact lenses and elaborate costumes? Does she actually back up the insights she purports to provide with careful arguments? Will the duo decide that Contrapoints is just like Russell Brand: all style and no substance? Is her deprecating humour merely cover for a rampaging and performative ego? Will Matt ever find out where he can get his hands on that fabulous wallpaper?All these questions, and more, will be answered in this exciting new episode!LinksJustice (Part 1) VideoNew Yorker article on Contrapoints

28 Joulu 20201h 58min

Special Episode: Entering the Portal

Special Episode: Entering the Portal

Chris and Matt take a peak behind the curtain at Guru Community dynamics in the Web 2.0 era in an extended interview with Dan Gilbert, a self described 'Discord creature'. Dan provides insights from his long term participation in Eric Weinstein's 'Unofficial Portal' Discord and reveals the mystery behind the 'mentally unstable' community member!If you ever wanted to learn about the intricate distinctions between Geometric Unity, and Geometric Marginalism or the ill fated outcome of Eric's 'Experts only' forum... now is your chance.We will be back next week with our regular episode on Contrapoints.Dan's apology song to EricFollow Dan on Twitter (@thebadstats)Episode Art used with permission of Michael M. AKA Pineapplemikel

18 Joulu 20201h 27min

Scott Adams: Chris and Matt Go to Hell

Scott Adams: Chris and Matt Go to Hell

Scott Adams, creator of Dilbert, has since written self-help books like 'Win Bigly' & 'Loserthink' and now hosts his own podcast "Coffee with Scott Adams".In mild-mannered, folksy, and avuncular style, he has a 'simultaneous sip' of coffee, a little chuckle with his listeners, and then they chat about the events of the day and how democracy is a farce and maybe a benevolent dictatorship would be preferable.Scott's fatherly advice is geared towards one thing: undermining your belief that there is any truth or justice in world - or that these things are even possible. You can trust literally nobody. All systems are corrupt, and the world works through the exercise of naked power and the manipulation of gullible rubes like you.It doesn't even matter if the libs stole the election. Trump should just go ahead and take it, if he can.Scott Adams considers himself a Master Persuader and he uses every rhetorical trick in the book to persuade you that America is so corrupt to try and get you to agree that a benevolent dictator would probably be preferable at this point.Think of the kind of 'helpful advice' that Wormtongue used to demoralise Théoden in Lord of the Rings.It's really horrible...So, if this sounds like fun to you, join Chris and Matt as they go to hell and become increasingly depressed throughout the episode!LinksCoffee with Scott Adams Episode 1197: Odds of rigging an election and getting away with it (Part 1 & Part 2)Coffee with Scott Adams Episode 1206: Watch Me Monetize My Dumbest Critics While Discussing the Election Allegations. Thank You, Critics! (Part 1 & Part 2)

10 Joulu 20202h 16min

Russell Brand: Spiritual Transcendence and Anarchic Revolution is Praxis

Russell Brand: Spiritual Transcendence and Anarchic Revolution is Praxis

Russell Brand is a hip bohemian Englishman on the path to enlightenment. And he likes the ineffable. Like, a lot. The decoders kinda like him too, despite the fact they really struggle to eff him at all. Really, Matt has no effing idea what he is babbling about most of the time, but Chris, being 'English-adjacent', seems to make a better job of it.Imagine smoking pot and talking big ideas with your precocious college room-mate at 2am in the morning. Now give him some methamphetamine, and you've got some idea of the fast-talking stream of consciousness that is Russell Brand.A pair of milquetoast moderates like Chris and Matt just aren't the right audience to properly appreciate the mystical anarchism that Brand advocates. It's probably got something to do with the limits of the bandwidth of their instruments of perception given that knowledge and wisdom are infinite and being-ness itself is.... Well, you get the idea.The lads also reveal some of the exciting progress of the podcast!In exciting news... DTG has broken into the top 100 podcasts! In the Culture and Society category... in Iceland.Regardless, come ride this unstoppable and frenetic juggernaut of mind-expanding concepts with us, and get these cosmic ideas downloaded directly into your squishy little brain!LinksJeremy Paxman and Russell Brand interview from 2013The main 'Awakening of Russell Brand' interview with Rich RollShort Video Update from Brand on 'What I think about This UK Election and Politics Today'

21 Marras 20202h 5min

Rutger Bregman: Piglets vs. Toddlers

Rutger Bregman: Piglets vs. Toddlers

Rutger Bregman is a Dutch Historian who wants to tell the world that humans are actually fundamentally kind, hunter gatherer societies contain important wisdom about how to live well, and that collectively we need to cooperate to do something about climate change and economic inequality. So, obviously there was no way Chris and Matt could let these dangerous ideas go unchallenged!Join them this week as they delve into one of Rutger's talks and address Noble Savage myths and other age old debates including whether human nature is fundamentally brutish & cruel or compassionate & kind, whether war is ancient or a recent product of societies, whether civilisation was a good idea or the worst one ever, and perhaps most importantly whether Matt could defeat a chimpanzee in one on one combat when armed with two swords.LinksThe Futures interview with Rutger examined in the episode (with transcript)Research Article that raises doubt about the domestication hypothesis especially in regards to silver foxesAn old blog post by Chris that discusses the debates over the topic of ancient war

7 Marras 20202h 14min

Special Episode: Is Eric Weinstein Feynman-Negative?

Special Episode: Is Eric Weinstein Feynman-Negative?

Eric Weinstein has a habit of inserting mini conspiracy laden "audio-essays" at the beginning of his podcast The Portal. The one released this week was impressive even by Eric's standards. So, the duo took took a break from preparing for their next episode on Rutger Bregman to release a Special Bonus Episode, Hot off the press!In the episode you will learn about Seberging, Milgram-negative people, and obscure Russian Penal Codes. You will also learn that the concept of Fake News is actually FAKE NEWS, invented by a shadowy cabal of media and political elites to control you sheeple. Astoundingly, there is actually a conspiracy afoot to suppress Eric and his friends in the IDW!Chris and Matt set themselves the task of deciding whether this is serious analysis, or... something else....LinksThe Portal episode 41 with the 'audio essay'New critical article on the Weinsteins at Arc Digital

30 Loka 20201h 20min

JP Sears: Get Ultra Spiritual, Resist the Government, and Promote Coronavirus Conspiracies

JP Sears: Get Ultra Spiritual, Resist the Government, and Promote Coronavirus Conspiracies

JP Sears is quite the contradictory figure. He's well known for his YouTube videos mocking alternative health and spirituality, but he also sells natural supplements, and is a life coach / spiritual mentor. He's all about positive thinking and natural supplements, but he's spending most of his time now railing against the mainstream media, the Deep State, and COVID restrictions.As Chris and Matt dig deeper, it becomes clear that JP occupies an interesting place, at the nexus of trenchant libertarianism and spiritual self-actualisation. Think Californian surfer dude meets hardcore tech-bro with a healthy dose of conspiracies. Yes, it's confusing. But just take a listen to this episode, and the doors of perception will open for you too!LinksJP Sears' Podcast Feed (we cover episodes 104, 103, 101, & 96)Chris' old Medium article on 'The Problem with JP Sears'Good article on the surprising overlap between right wing conspiracies & new age health & wellness

23 Loka 20202h 6min

Jordan Peterson: The Alchemical Lemon explains the Crystalline Structure of Logos

Jordan Peterson: The Alchemical Lemon explains the Crystalline Structure of Logos

Chris and Matt finally discuss the big kahuna Jordan Peterson by taking a deep dive into his extended 2017 interview on the Transliminal YouTube channel titled 'Ideology, Logos & Belief'.They learn about the alchemical nature of lemons, whether a professional footballer is playing a game or living life, and Jordan Peterson's crystal clear views on the nature of Jesus & his resurrection.Some people will say this episode is too cynical, but it's like... 'No. It isn't, man!' And furthermore, it's not at all obvious that we actually know... on a fundamental level... what cynicism is! It's mysterious and there is a lot we do not know.LinksJordan Peterson's 2017 interview on TransliminalA Transcript of the InterviewA Good (but very critical) article on JBP by Nathan Robinson at Current AffairsAn article by JBP's old mentor suggesting his long term goal was to become a religious guru

9 Loka 20202h 26min

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