“Nazis on the Potomac” – with former National Park Service Chief Historian Bob Sutton
SpyCast8 Marras 2022

“Nazis on the Potomac” – with former National Park Service Chief Historian Bob Sutton

Summary Bob Sutton (LinkedIn; Twitter) joins Andrew (Twitter; LinkedIn) to discuss the mysterious intelligence site P.O. Box 1142. High-value Nazis were interrogated here during WWII. What You’ll Learn Intelligence The interrogation of top Nazis for intelligence The analysis of literally tons of captured German documents Refining ways to escape and evade Nazis in German occupied Europe The importance of intelligence on the German Army’s Order of Battle Reflections The National Park Service & History Politicizing Interpretation And much, much more… Episode Notes This week’s guest is the former Chief Historian of the National Park Service, Bob Sutton, and what a wonderful conversation we had. His book, Nazis on the Potomac: The Top-Secret Intelligence Operation that Helped Win WWII, tells the story of military intelligence facility P.O. Box 1142 – present day Fort Hunt, around 15 miles south of Washington DC.It was here, between 1942-1945, that around three and a half thousand high level German prisoners were interrogated, captured documents analyzed, and ways to help Americans escape and evade Nazis in occupied Europe studied. This story is particularly incredible, because many of the interrogators were German born Jews. This story was almost lost to history, but thankfully because of the NPS and Bob Sutton, it never will be. [Conflict of interest disclosure, Andrew has an “America the Beautiful” Annual Pass]. And… John W. Kluge arrived in the United States from Germany not speaking a word of English in 1922. He was 8 years old. He would go on to be the head of the Military Intelligence Research Section (MIRS) at P.O. Box 1142. After the war, he would go on to become the richest man in the United States. He was so appreciative of America, that he provided funds to Columbia University and The Library Congress to provide opportunities to future students and scholars. Andrew is a former John W. Kluge Fellow at the Library of Congress and therefore a direct recipient of his philanthropy for which he is grateful. Quote of the Week "Doing what we did at Fort Hunt is actually fairly unusual, where we didn't know the story. We were able to locate people, we were able to get money, we could actually interview everybody that we found…That's relatively unusual." – Bob Sutton Resources SURFACE SKIM *Andrew’s Recommendation* Oral History Interview with John W. Kluge, NPS Some fascinating budgets on how his time in intelligence informed his business practices *Featured Resource* Nazis on the Potomac: The Top-Secret Intelligence Operation that Helped Win WWII, B. Sutton (Casemate, 2022) *Beginner Resources* POWs and Intel at Fort Hunt in WWII, NPS (n.d.) [web article] P.O. Box 1142, Top Secret Heroes, YouTube [3 min video] History Series (GS-0170) Federal Jobs, [career article] DEEPER DIVE *SpyCasts* “The Beverley Hills Spy” – with Seth Abramovich (2022) Books Richie Boy Secrets, B. Eddy (Stackpole, 2021) Escape and Evasion, P. Froom (Schiffer, 2015) The History of Camp Tracy, A. Corbin (Zeidon, 2009) Articles P.O. Box 1142, The Mysterious WWII Installation, SOF (2022) MIS-X: Escape and Evasion in WWII, N. Nix, Patch (2011) Moving Image Fort Hunt Up to WWII, R. Sutton, C-SPAN (2022) Richie Boys, 60 Minutes (2022) The New Americans: The Immigrants who Served, U.S. Holocaust Museum (2020) Primary Sources “Red Book”: Order of Battle of the German Army (1945) Oral Sources Oral History Interview with Rudolph Pins (2006) Oral History Interview with Silvio Bedini (2007) Oral History Interview with Paul Fairbrook (2008) Oral History Collections Fort Hunt Oral History Project, P.O. Box 1142 *Wildcard Resource* H. Res. 753 A Resolution on P.O. Box 1142 from the 110th Congress “Whereas” is utilized to great effect to tell the story with great aplomb! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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From Covert to Overt: Valerie Plame on political retaliation

From Covert to Overt: Valerie Plame on political retaliation

Valerie Plame’s clandestine life made headlines in 2003 after her CIA cover was leaked to the press. Her husband, an ambassador, had gone to Niger to investigate whether yellowcake uranium had been transferred to Iraq to make weapons of mass destruction.  He publicly challenged the Bush administration on what we now know was false intelligence. Valerie’s unmasking was seen as retaliation. Now, over 20 years later, she reflects on the political scandal, and where her concerns lie today. If you liked this episode, check out these links: Author Debriefing: Burned with Valerie Plame National Security Now: An Evening with Gina Bennett and Peter Bergen Join Valerie aboard the Spies at Sea cruise August 30 - September 8, 2025! On this 10-day voyage across the Mediterranean, you’ll explore beautiful sights and ancient cities while immersing yourself in the world of espionage with exclusive seminars. Learn more here: https://www.spiesliesnukes.com/spies-at-seas-2025  Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/ And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at SpyCast@Spymuseum.org.  This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

18 Maalis 202530min

Eyes on The Ground: The National Resistance Front in Afghanistan

Eyes on The Ground: The National Resistance Front in Afghanistan

After the Taliban took back control of Afghanistan, the National Resistance Front rose up to defy them. We spoke with their leader Ahmad Massoud, who has overseen hundreds of military and intelligence-gathering operations. He’s following the footsteps of his father, who led his own resistance group, the Northern Alliance, until members of Al Qaeda assassinated him two days before they conducted the September 11 terrorist attacks. Fast forward to the mid-2000s, International Spy Museum executive director Chris Costa, then a human intelligence officer, worked with that group to develop intel on the Taliban and Al Qaeda. Now, in the wake of the U.S. withdrawal and Afghanistan’s collapse, Costa says the U.S. is losing an opportunity to support Massoud and the National Resistance Front. If you liked this episode, check out these links: Spy Chat with Chris Costa | Guest: Ali Maisam Nazary Spy Chat with Chris Costa | Guest: Christine Abizaid Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/ And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at SpyCast@Spymuseum.org.  This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

11 Maalis 202529min

From NFL to Espionage: The Story of Ernest Cuneo

From NFL to Espionage: The Story of Ernest Cuneo

He was an American spy before an American spy agency existed. NFL player Ernest Cuneo, a little known first generation Italian American, worked with British intelligence to convince the United States to join World War II, and helped lay the groundwork for modern day espionage. Thomas Maier traces Cuneo’s extraordinary life in his new book, The Invisible Spy, out March 25th.  If you liked this episode, check out these links: Agent Link: The Spy Erased from History | With former FBI Counterintelligence Expert The Dirty Tricks Department with John Lisle Operation Underworld with Matthew Black Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/ And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at SpyCast@Spymuseum.org,  This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

4 Maalis 202525min

Debriefing from the Ukrainian Front

Debriefing from the Ukrainian Front

A fourth year of war in Ukraine begins. But for Lt. Col. Kyrylo Berkal, who’s been fighting since Russia first invaded in 2014, the battle for his country has raged much longer. Now, he’s second in command of the elite Third Assault Brigade, which has played a major role in critical battles against Russia and continues to develop new technologies to both gather intelligence and enhance combat techniques.  Kirt spoke to us between missions. During the conversation, he revealed his firsthand insights and experiences of the war as Ukraine keeps up the fight for independence. If you liked this episode, check out these links: An Evening with General David H. Petraeus Spy Chat with Chris Costa | Guest: Ambassador Roger D. Carstens SpyCast - “Zelensky, Ukraine & Intelligence” – with Simon Shuster Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/ And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at SpyCast@Spymuseum.org,  This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

25 Helmi 202527min

How did Harriet Tubman operate as a spy?

How did Harriet Tubman operate as a spy?

She’s known for helping to free people through the Underground Railroad, but Harriet Tubman was also a spy during the Civil War. And with the intelligence she collected, the Maryland native became the first woman to lead men into battle on gunboats down the Combahee River in South Carolina. The Combahee River Raid destroyed several vital Confederate rice plantations and liberated more than 750 people from enslavement.   Social historian Edda Fields-Black reveals new details about the raid and Tubman. And later in the episode, Ernestine Wyatt, Tubman’s great-great-great-grandniece, discusses the importance of Harriet’s espionage work and the legacy of her dedication to democracy.  If you liked this episode, check out these links: The Real Harriet Tubman African Americans in Espionage | International Spy Museum Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/ And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at spycast@Spymuseum.org,  This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

18 Helmi 202530min

What's next for Kim Jong Un?

What's next for Kim Jong Un?

North Korea is growing more dangerous, but no U.S. administration has been able to crack the code on its leader Kim Jong Un. Now, there’s even less incentive for Kim to negotiate because of the support he’s getting from Russia. So what will Kim do next, and where is he vulnerable? Jung H. Pak, a former CIA analyst who served as the country’s top diplomat for North Korea, takes us inside the mind of one of the world's most opaque leaders. If you liked this episode, check out these links: Virtual Spy Chat with Chris Costa | Guest: Dr. Jung H. Pak AI and Emerging Technologies: Intelligence Opportunities & Challenges  Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/ And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic,  you can reach us by E-mail at SpyCast@Spymuseum.org,  This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

11 Helmi 202530min

Campus Cloak-and-Dagger: Spies Targeting American Universities

Campus Cloak-and-Dagger: Spies Targeting American Universities

For decades, colleges and universities have been a destination for espionage. Especially in recent years, the use of international students and faculty as spies on American campuses has been particularly daunting. Why do intelligence services, both foreign and domestic, target colleges and universities? And what is there to gain on these campuses? Award-winning journalist Daniel Golden, author of the book Spy Schools, describes the timeless game.  If you liked this episode, check out these links: Secret History of History: Color Wars Part II with Catherine McKinley Chinese Corporate Espionage - The Tale of the Tea Thief with Sarah Rose Declassified Dessert | How to Make Cuban Spy Ana Montes’ Cheesecake Queen of Cuba with Peter J. Lapp SpyCast | “Making Sense of China, Taiwan, & America” – Pacific Intelligence with Bonny Lin Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/ And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic,  you can reach us by E-mail at SpyCast@Spymuseum.org,  This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

4 Helmi 202527min

Agent Zo: The woman who defied the Nazis and Communists

Agent Zo: The woman who defied the Nazis and Communists

Agent Zo was the only female Polish resistance agent to reach London as a courier during WWII and the only female member of Poland's fabled 'Silent Unseen' paratroopers. Yet despite having researched Poland's wartime resistance movement, many of us have never heard of her. Why? If you liked this episode, check out these links: Agent Zo: The Extraordinary Woman Who Parachuted Into Nazi-Occupied Poland Women Spies of WWII with Ellen McCarthy, Judith L. Pearson, and Erika Robuck The Danger of the Femme Fatale Narrative Code Name Madeleine with author Arthur J. Magida Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/ And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic,  you can reach us by E-mail at SpyCast@Spymuseum.org,  This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

28 Tammi 202528min

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