“Nazis on the Potomac” – with former National Park Service Chief Historian Bob Sutton
SpyCast8 Marras 2022

“Nazis on the Potomac” – with former National Park Service Chief Historian Bob Sutton

Summary Bob Sutton (LinkedIn; Twitter) joins Andrew (Twitter; LinkedIn) to discuss the mysterious intelligence site P.O. Box 1142. High-value Nazis were interrogated here during WWII. What You’ll Learn Intelligence The interrogation of top Nazis for intelligence The analysis of literally tons of captured German documents Refining ways to escape and evade Nazis in German occupied Europe The importance of intelligence on the German Army’s Order of Battle Reflections The National Park Service & History Politicizing Interpretation And much, much more… Episode Notes This week’s guest is the former Chief Historian of the National Park Service, Bob Sutton, and what a wonderful conversation we had. His book, Nazis on the Potomac: The Top-Secret Intelligence Operation that Helped Win WWII, tells the story of military intelligence facility P.O. Box 1142 – present day Fort Hunt, around 15 miles south of Washington DC.It was here, between 1942-1945, that around three and a half thousand high level German prisoners were interrogated, captured documents analyzed, and ways to help Americans escape and evade Nazis in occupied Europe studied. This story is particularly incredible, because many of the interrogators were German born Jews. This story was almost lost to history, but thankfully because of the NPS and Bob Sutton, it never will be. [Conflict of interest disclosure, Andrew has an “America the Beautiful” Annual Pass]. And… John W. Kluge arrived in the United States from Germany not speaking a word of English in 1922. He was 8 years old. He would go on to be the head of the Military Intelligence Research Section (MIRS) at P.O. Box 1142. After the war, he would go on to become the richest man in the United States. He was so appreciative of America, that he provided funds to Columbia University and The Library Congress to provide opportunities to future students and scholars. Andrew is a former John W. Kluge Fellow at the Library of Congress and therefore a direct recipient of his philanthropy for which he is grateful. Quote of the Week "Doing what we did at Fort Hunt is actually fairly unusual, where we didn't know the story. We were able to locate people, we were able to get money, we could actually interview everybody that we found…That's relatively unusual." – Bob Sutton Resources SURFACE SKIM *Andrew’s Recommendation* Oral History Interview with John W. Kluge, NPS Some fascinating budgets on how his time in intelligence informed his business practices *Featured Resource* Nazis on the Potomac: The Top-Secret Intelligence Operation that Helped Win WWII, B. Sutton (Casemate, 2022) *Beginner Resources* POWs and Intel at Fort Hunt in WWII, NPS (n.d.) [web article] P.O. Box 1142, Top Secret Heroes, YouTube [3 min video] History Series (GS-0170) Federal Jobs, [career article] DEEPER DIVE *SpyCasts* “The Beverley Hills Spy” – with Seth Abramovich (2022) Books Richie Boy Secrets, B. Eddy (Stackpole, 2021) Escape and Evasion, P. Froom (Schiffer, 2015) The History of Camp Tracy, A. Corbin (Zeidon, 2009) Articles P.O. Box 1142, The Mysterious WWII Installation, SOF (2022) MIS-X: Escape and Evasion in WWII, N. Nix, Patch (2011) Moving Image Fort Hunt Up to WWII, R. Sutton, C-SPAN (2022) Richie Boys, 60 Minutes (2022) The New Americans: The Immigrants who Served, U.S. Holocaust Museum (2020) Primary Sources “Red Book”: Order of Battle of the German Army (1945) Oral Sources Oral History Interview with Rudolph Pins (2006) Oral History Interview with Silvio Bedini (2007) Oral History Interview with Paul Fairbrook (2008) Oral History Collections Fort Hunt Oral History Project, P.O. Box 1142 *Wildcard Resource* H. Res. 753 A Resolution on P.O. Box 1142 from the 110th Congress “Whereas” is utilized to great effect to tell the story with great aplomb! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Jaksot(726)

 The Minions: Putin's Expendable Spies

The Minions: Putin's Expendable Spies

They were a spy cell like no other — operating from quiet British suburbs, hailing from Bulgaria, and working on behalf of Russia. Their handler dubbed them “The Minions,” and their plots stretched across Europe and spanned honeytraps, abductions, and murder. At the time of this recording, six have been convicted and await sentencing. To parse out the case, we spoke with Gordon Corera, a British author and co-host of The Rest is Classified podcast. Check out The Rest is Classified here, or wherever you get your podcasts.  If you liked this episode, check out these links: Spy Chat with Chris Costa | Special Guest: Paul Whelan Russian Assassinations in the UK: Inside Three Notorious Cases with Historian Nigel West Curator's Corner: Kevin P. Riehle on Russian Intelligence Prefer to watch your podcasts? Find us on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/@IntlSpyMuseum/podcasts.  Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/  And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at SpyCast@Spymuseum.org.  This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

6 Touko 30min

Escalation: Tracking the US-Ukraine Relationship

Escalation: Tracking the US-Ukraine Relationship

The United States and Ukraine have had a long, complicated history that has been defined by just as much partnership and collaboration as hesitation and disagreement. This dynamic is laid bare in the 7-part podcast series ‘Escalation,’ produced by our partners at Goat Rodeo, with the national security publication Lawfare. In April 2025, The International Spy Museum hosted a panel discussion on the Washington-Kyiv relationship moderated by SpyCast host Sasha Ingber, and featuring Ukrainian journalist Anastasiia Lapatina, Lawfare’s Managing Editor Tyler McBrien, Retired Brigadier General Kipling Kahler, and former National Security Council spokesperson Emily Horne. To listen to the whole Escalation series, visit: https://www.lawfaremedia.org/podcasts-multimedia/podcast/escalation Prefer to watch your podcasts? Find us on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/@IntlSpyMuseum/podcasts.   Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/  And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at SpyCast@Spymuseum.org.  This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

29 Huhti 38min

Where the ‘West V. Russia’ Plot Begins

Where the ‘West V. Russia’ Plot Begins

Why does Vladimir Putin often say that the West is conspiring to weaken Russia? Historian James Crossland traces this narrative back to a British intelligence officer and a failed assassination attempt on Vladimir Lenin in 1918. The story is featured in his new book, Rogue Agent, from Secret Plots to Psychological Warfare, the Untold Story of Robert Bruce Lockhart. James takes us into Lockhart’s psyche and lays out how a single moment in the dying days of Czarist Russia helped fuel a century of paranoia and rifts. SPY Artifact Highlight: Trotsky Ice Axe  If you liked this episode, check out these links: Sidney Reilly: Master Spy with Benny Morris Accessory to a Mission - Gadgets and Gear For The Well-Dressed Spy SpyCast | Rise of Devils - The Origin of Modern Terrorism with James Crossland Prefer to watch your podcasts? Find us on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/@IntlSpyMuseum/podcasts.   Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/  And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at SpyCast@Spymuseum.org.  This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

22 Huhti 31min

DOGE Layoffs and the Counterintelligence Threats They Pose

DOGE Layoffs and the Counterintelligence Threats They Pose

Government employees were dismissed with startling swiftness and sweeping in the midst of the Trump administration's relentless pursuit to pare down the federal workforce. The sheer number of fired personnel and the manner in which US officials let them go have led to concerns that disillusioned former employees may share what they know with foreign intelligence services, jeopardizing the very security they once sought to protect. Bill Evanina, former Director of Counterintelligence, discusses this fear and how foreign adversaries are exploiting the moment. If you liked this episode, check out these links: Dir. of National Intelligence Roundtable: 2025 Society for Intelligence History Panel Spy Chat with Chris Costa | Guest: Alan E. Kohler, Jr. Prefer to watch your podcasts? Find us on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/@IntlSpyMuseum/podcasts.  Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/  And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at SpyCast@Spymuseum.org.  This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

15 Huhti 31min

Taiwan: China’s Testing Ground for Intelligence Operations

Taiwan: China’s Testing Ground for Intelligence Operations

It's no secret that China has recently stepped up political and military pressure on the democratically governed island of Taiwan. But then, there are the Chinese Communist Party's covert efforts: Recruiting from the inside, gathering intelligence, and exerting influence. Executive Director of the Global Taiwan Institute Russell Hsiao breaks down Beijing Shadow Games in Taiwan. If you liked this episode, check out these links: SpyCast | “Making Sense of China, Taiwan, & America” – Pacific Intelligence with Bonny Lin Understanding Chinese Espionage Through 900 Cases | SpyCast Join Valerie aboard the Spies at Sea cruise August 30 - September 8, 2025! On this 10-day voyage across the Mediterranean, you’ll explore beautiful sights and ancient cities while immersing yourself in the world of espionage with exclusive seminars. Learn more here: https://www.spiesliesnukes.com/spies-at-seas-2025  Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/ And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at SpyCast@Spymuseum.org.  This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

8 Huhti 29min

Introducing Targeted

Introducing Targeted

Targeted uncovers harrowing stories of people who have been singled out and systematically dismantled—whether for political reasons, personal vendettas, or simply for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Each episode deep dives into the tactics used against someone, the devastating consequences, and the remarkable lessons they’ve learned in their fight to survive. Targeted gives listeners the tools to recognize and resist being targeted themselves. If you’ve ever wondered how systems meant to protect can be weaponized, or what to do if you find yourself in the crosshairs, this podcast is for you. Find episodes of Targeted at targeted.com, YouTube, or wherever you get podcasts. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

2 Huhti 33min

Understanding Chinese Espionage Through 900 Cases

Understanding Chinese Espionage Through 900 Cases

Nicholas Eftimiades’ 34 year career in government spanned the CIA, State Department and the Defense Intelligence Agency. He's published three books that examine the structure, methodology and operations of China's intelligence services. This, he says, led a Chinese communist newspaper to declare him an enemy of the state in the ‘90s. Now, Nick is retired, and he's been building an unusual database tracking some 900 cases of Chinese espionage. We sat down to dive in.  If you liked this episode, check out these links: How China's spy balloon isn't so unique for espionage technology Curator's Corner | Trafficking Data with Aynne Kokas Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/  And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at SpyCast@Spymuseum.org.  This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

1 Huhti 29min

Remembering The CIA’s Mind Games

Remembering The CIA’s Mind Games

Sidney Gottlieb was one of the CIA’s star chemists during the Cold War. As head of MKUltra, he ran a brazen—and deadly—program aimed at mind control.  Gottlieb and fellow scientists tried to keep the work secret by destroying files, but historian John Lisle has new details from the six boxes that remained untouched. He shares insights and reflections straight from the mouths of MKUltra’s perpetrators and victims.  John’s new book, Project Mind Control, sheds light on one of the CIA’s darkest moments which still haunts the agency. Available now for pre-order.  If you liked this episode, check out these links: The Dirty Tricks Department with John Lisle THE SOUND: Mystery of Havana Syndrome Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/  And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at SpyCast@Spymuseum.org.  This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

25 Maalis 31min

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