Rory Sutherland on why marketing is the answer to economic growth
Uncensored CMO9 Apr 2025

Rory Sutherland on why marketing is the answer to economic growth

Rory Sutherland returns to the Uncensored CMO podcast, tackling the economic crisis with his signature wit and wisdom. As ever, he offers a refreshingly unconventional perspective on the world’s biggest problems — and marketing’s role in solving them.

In this episode, Rory explores why marketing is more like a casino than a science, how to capitalise on your competitors’ blind spots, and what his unexpected TikTok fame has taught him. Expect laughs, left-field insights, and the kind of brilliantly bizarre anecdotes only Rory can deliver.


Timestamps

00:00 - Intro
01:03 - Are we looking in the wrong place for growth?
05:33 - Should we slow down our adoption of AI?
09:08 - What marketers and the police have in common
14:40 - Marketing is a casino
17:42 - The most transformative behavioural science insights
19:47 - Take what your competition are doing badly and double down on it
26:20 - Fame is a luck multiplier
32:43 - Why AO add bears to every order
37:19 - How Rory would boost growth in the economy?
47:13 - What has Rory been profoundly wrong about and why

Episoder(232)

MAD//Fest - From contemporary dance to craft beer revolution? - Tom Rainsford, Beavertown Brewery

MAD//Fest - From contemporary dance to craft beer revolution? - Tom Rainsford, Beavertown Brewery

Tom Rainsford has been named as one of the Top 50 creative minds in the country.  After a surprising start to his career (that still stands him in great creative stead even now), Tom has grown a challenger brand into a household name and now leads the Marketing at one of the coolest brands on the planet – Beavertown Brewery.What does Tom see as the magic ingredients for successful brand growth, why does he believe culture and fact-based emotion are they key and how is he going to top his show stopping MadFest opener from last yearDancing your way to a top job in marketingShould you do a marketing degree?The first kickstarter brand? David to Goliath on Giff Gaff: 10 years building a genuinely different business model - how to outsmart the big boysAre great brands emotional or rational?The problems with tech marketing are…..Watch your internal language doesn’t end up in your communicationsWhy Tom believes in In-housing: how to nurture creativity within a companyWhy creativity is not valued in business.The important questions businesses need to ask themselves about why their creative is wrongThe importance of Culture: Does pizza on a Wednesday help?Was COVID a blessing for marketeers?Art and advertising reflecting culture: A discussion about Orlando Wood’s Look OutWhy pubs can be the answer the growth.Beavertown Neck Oil: Jon and Tom drink at 11am!Has craft beer jumped the shark?Is consistency important in marketing after all?Why Logan (Robert Plants son) founded Beavertown and what’s it like working in Founder led businesses.Why Beavertown innovation works (according to System1)Why Tom wants you to steal his pint glasses.What makes Beavertown stand out?The importance of a stonking productShifting to Heineken ownership - have things changed?Ensuring innovation succeeds within a titan mothershipMadfest: How Tom is planning to top his mobile phone/trust gigHow culture delivers brand trust and helps brands ride the stormCan you learn to do what Derren Brown diss in a month?Why being a CMO can be a lonely affair.The importance of making more noise in bad timesDo people do good work when they are knackered?Marketing artists vs marketing scientistsThe biggest failure in Tom’s career (and what he learnt)The reward of messing upWhy the more senior you get the less you know.“To do” lists vs “to think” listsWhat everyone’s next big business question needs to be……

29 Jun 20231h 7min

Rory Sutherland, the Master of Madfest, on why behavioural science should get awards

Rory Sutherland, the Master of Madfest, on why behavioural science should get awards

Live from Cannes, third time returning guest Rory Sutherland gives us his views on just how good this year’s Festival of Creativity is, what should be awarded, AI vs AI, what we should be looking for as marketeers in current trends and the value that behavioural science brings to creativity.He also talks about what he is looking forward to on the road to another great festival – Madfest, and why he is doing his Mad Masters course.What we covered in this episode:Why Rory thinks this Cannes Lions Festival is the most wonderful ever.The backbone that Rory thinks System1 and WARC bringThe Campaign for a new Behavioural Science AwardFestival of creativity or advertising?The brilliance of ABInbev brewers for bread campaignRory on re-writing the advertising rulesJon’s 5 most creative momentsWhat excites Rory about behavioural scienceRory’s definition of creativityThe story at the heart of Crocs growthShould there be a Cannes Lion for zero budget campaigns?Fashions in psychologyThe problem with chat GPT is……Outlier vs average impact on creativityThe value Artificial Inquisitiveness and Interestingly wrongPeople’s value in business vs automationSystem1’s learnings on AI creativity and innovationWhy brand partnerships should be awarded.Encouraging people to think more widely about what they should be testing.Does Rory think the world needs Apple Vision?Should Google have persisted with Google Glass?Why all Europeans report to distain automatic cars.Rory’s ideas for the tech world innovationWhen are people happy being happy cut off from fellow men?The most important economic thing about Zoom meetings.How Rory is plotting to get more cash for creative peopleWhy Rory keeps coming back on The Uncensored CMOThe value of “crap creativity” – why the obvious solution could sometimes be betterRory’s Road to Madfest  - what he is looking forward to and why he is doing Mad MastersLinksFollow JonWatch UCMO on YouTube

27 Jun 202341min

Cannes Lions - The Triple Opportunity of Attention with Karen Nelson-Field, Orlando Wood, Rob Brittain

Cannes Lions - The Triple Opportunity of Attention with Karen Nelson-Field, Orlando Wood, Rob Brittain

In this episode I'm joined by three more effectiveness titans in my Cannes special coverage. Karen Nelson-Field, Rob Brittain and fan favourite Orlando Wood join me to talk about the triple opportunity of attention.

23 Jun 202323min

Cannes Lions - The 3rd Age of Effectiveness with Les Binet, Grace Kite & Tom Roach

Cannes Lions - The 3rd Age of Effectiveness with Les Binet, Grace Kite & Tom Roach

Following on from the IPA EffWorks and WARC session on the Terrace Stage in Cannes, I speak to effectiveness legends, Les Binet, Grace Kite and Tom roach to outline the big shifts in advertising effectiveness in the digital era, suggesting that we’re leaving the trough of disillusionment and moving onto the plateau of productivity.Register for the IPA webinar: https://ipa.co.uk/events-listing/the-3rd-age-of-effectivenessDigital once promised so much in terms of effectiveness, efficiency, tracking, and accountability. But the reality didn’t live up to the hype. And now we’re entering a new era - one where the best understanding about things have always worked are being blended with new ways of doing things, and the evidence suggests things are beginning to work better as a result.  They challenge the narrative that creativity is declining and digital is the culprit. On the contrary, analysis of the ARC database shows effectiveness is improving in some places, (less so in others). It will also shine a light on brand-building in the platform world, specifically, creativity within the platforms. Tom talks about how clients, agencies and creators are getting to grips with the new environment, showcasing examples of effective creativity from around the world.

21 Jun 202324min

Managing the biggest beauty brand in the world - Lex Bradshaw-Zanger, L'Oreal CMO

Managing the biggest beauty brand in the world - Lex Bradshaw-Zanger, L'Oreal CMO

Lex Bradshaw-Zanger is the Chief Marketing & Digital Officer for L’Oréal South Asia Pacific, Middle East & North Africa Region. Prior to this role, Lex was the CMO for the UK & Ireland, held roles in the Western Europe Zone and was Chief Digital Officer for the L’Oréal Middle East and Africa Region. Prior to L’Oréal, Lex was with McDonald’s and Facebook. He is a recovered ad-man having spent over 10 years in the agency world, with both WPP and Publicis – his last role was Regional Director for Digital Strategy & Innovation for Leo Burnett MENA.

14 Jun 202351min

A marketers guide to a squiggly career - Helen Tupper, Amazing If

A marketers guide to a squiggly career - Helen Tupper, Amazing If

Work is fundamentally important to the quality of our lives and we are surrounded by more change and choice than ever before. Our careers have become far less predictable and increasingly 'squiggly'. In this episode I have a chat with Helen Tupper, co-founder of Amazing If and co-author of "The Squiggly Career: Ditch the Ladder, Discover Opportunity, Design Your Career".Subscribe to the podcast on YouTube ->Find out more about Helen:The Squiggly Career BookSquiggly Careers PodcastAmazing IfHelen's LinkedInWhat we covered in this episode:How Helen and Sarah started their business on napkinWhy the career ladder is not necessarily the path to success5 years of experimentation to develop the Squiggly businessHow Helen and Sarah went from starting The Squiggly Careers Podcast to 330 episodesHow to create a growth flywheel for your brand or business - making content more usefulWhy creating something of huge value for free is the key to B2B growth - remaining relevantTrusting in reciprocity - why helping people authentically is so important for growthWhy you shouldn't worry about your weaknessesThe Squiggly Careers Book - The 5 Key Skills you needThe importance of deliberately choosing what you want to be known forYour 2 week energy audit - How to discover your core skills and valuesJon and Helen's 12 month career high and why it matteredBuilding high trust teams and emotional safetyLess budget =  happy teamsConfidence Gremlins and limiting beliefsTeaching yourself to draw on the positiveLearning how to fail.... and that this means for successThe pressure pedestal - we are not all Simon Sinek!Jon's advice on presentation skillsNetworking Events - how to reframe the fearFired? Redundant? How to get back into employment....fast!Why you should only share what you really care aboutHow curious career conversations will set you up well in you next jobCreating a constant flow of future job opportunitiesHow to use your mobile phone contacts to find the perfect roleRedefining the definition of progressionHelen shares whom Squiggly Careers is for and whom it can helpHelen's advice on crafting your best career storyFollow Jon:LinkedInTwitter

7 Jun 202355min

Managing the worlds largest drinks brands (Guinness, Johnnie Walker, Smirnoff & more) - Ed Pilkington, CMO Diageo NA

Managing the worlds largest drinks brands (Guinness, Johnnie Walker, Smirnoff & more) - Ed Pilkington, CMO Diageo NA

Edward Pilkington is the Chief Marketing & Innovation Officer at Diageo North America, managing a portfolio of the biggest brands in the world, including Guinness, Johnnie Walker, Baileys, Smirnoff and more. If theres anyone that understands how to run marketing for huge brands, it's Ed, and he certainly brings his wealth of experience to this conversation.

31 Mai 202345min

How Google put humanity into technology - Nishma Robb, Google UK

How Google put humanity into technology - Nishma Robb, Google UK

Nishma is responsible for leading brand and reputation marketing for Google in the UK. She has led many of Google’s acclaimed projects and campaigns including Digital Garage, This is My YouTube, the Google Executive Summit, Brandcast, ThinkwithGoogle and Be Internet Legends. Nishma is a Board Director at the School of Marketing and is proud to be a Fellow of the Marketing Society. Her accolades include Ad Age’s Woman to Watch, Europe (2018), Campaign A List (2017, 2018 and 2019), Drum Digerati and was recognised in the Hospital Group’s h100 list as one of the most influential and innovative people in the UK’s creative industry. When she’s not looking after her twins or at work, you’ll find her in sparkly shoes dancing in the sun or under the stars!Talking points00:00 Intro00:32 The inspiration behind MadWomen04:18 How Teletext was the Google before Google07:54 The responsibility of managing the Google brand12:20 How Google makes you look clever13:30 What search reveals about humanity16:08 "It’s Ok to Ask" campaign with Uncommon17:59 Why Marcus Rashford helping out with the campaign20:37 It’s not what we ask it’s what we do with the answers20:47 The role of humanity in Google's work24:05 Why we shouldn't just sell cheese26:01 How the Google Pixel phone makes technology accessible to new audiences30:17 CODA, How Google helped people understand the life of someone with two deaf parents34:02 How diverse advertising unites the audience36:40 Telling one person's story well39:40 Diversity and representation in media42:28 How technology democratises the ability for creators to get funded46:54 Creating the worlds first augmented reality brand48:00 Top tips for YouTube creators50:20 How creators and collaborators can grow your brand51:05 The role of AI to democratise tech53:13 Advice for advertisers using YouTube58:01 The surprising effectiveness of brand building style advertising in digital01:00:35 Nishma’s biggest ever failure01:02:36 Outro

24 Mai 20231h 3min

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