Unchained20 Dec 2025

Lessons From A Successful Tokenization Project & What Market Structure Reveals About Trump-Linked WLFI’s False Promises: Bits + Bips - Ep. 986

In this double-header episode of Bits + Bips, Steven Ehrlich first speaks with Figure CEO Mike Cagney about why most tokenization projects fail, how Figure built an onchain mortgage replacement, and why he believes big banks may now be leading blockchain innovation. Then, Jason Brett joins the show to explain how an upcoming crypto market structure bill could expose President Trump’s World Liberty Financial as centralized, and why that matters for DeFi, regulation, and the industry’s credibility. Sponsors: Uniswap Mantle Host: Steve Ehrlich, Executive Editor at Unchained Guests: Mike Cagney, Co-founder and CEO of Figure Technology Solutions Jason Brett, Former Banking Regulator With FDIC Links: Unchained: Inside Robinhood’s Big Super App Plan: ‘There’s Still a Lot of Work to Be Done’ Coinbase Launches Stock Trading and Prediction Markets How the GENIUS Act Creates a Built-In Advantage for Banks and Deposit Tokens Timestamps: 🚀 00:00 Introduction 🧠 1:48 What is a HELOC? 💡 4:48 How Figure is turning HELOCs into a mortgage replacement ⚡️ 7:58 How Figure issues loans from origination to disbursement 📍 11:28 Why Figure uses a blockchain ⚠️ 12:15 Cagney explains how liquidity poses a challenge for many tokenization projects 🧏‍♂️ 13:10 Why the real value proposition is in DeFi and how Figure is bring $1 billion on-chain 📃 14:14 Cagney reveals Figure's preferred DeFi platforms 💥 16:09 How the GENIUS Act could drive assets onchain ⚡️ 17:46 How Figure is working towards stablecoin settlement of loans 👀 23:40 Why Cagney says the big banks are doing more disruptive work than the likes of Coinbase ⚖️ 27:53 What Cagney is advocating for around DeFi in DC and his litmus test for decentralization ❕️ 31:30 Why Cagney believes anonymity is not necessary for decentralization CLIP 💡 33:32 How Cagney deals with the pressures of going public 🧠 34:32 Why Cagney has taken a different philosophical approach to Robinhood and Coinbase 💥 37:05 Cagney explains what it takes for tokenization projects to succeed 41:55 Intro 45:51 If crypto finally gets rules, what then? 49:39 Frozen wallets: the DeFi dealbreaker 55:51 Has the White House picked a DeFi side? 56:36 Why this goes beyond “ethics” 58:49 If Trump’s DeFi fails the test… then what? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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