Maiden Mother Matriarch with Louise Perry23 Nov 2025

The Eugenics Debate - Diana Fleischman vs Lyman Stone | Maiden Mother Matriarch Episode 173

In this episode I’m joined by Lyman Stone and Diana Fleischman for a debate on eugenics – specifically, Diana’s argument that most people support ‘negative eugenic’ policies to some degree, and that governments ought to go further by encouraging the use of sterilisation or long term contraception among, for instance, drug addicts.

Lyman Stone is the Director of Research of the consulting firm Demographic Intelligence, the director of the Pronatalism Initiative at the Institute for Family Studies, and an author on Substack -

Diana Fleischman is an evolutionary psychologist, Associate Research Professor at the University of New Mexico, and author of the Dissentient Substack - https://dissentient.substack.com

Discussed in the episode:

* Diana’s essay ‘You’re probably a eugenicist’

https://dissentient.substack.com/p/eugenicist

* Shor, E., & Simchai, D. (2009). Incest avoidance, the incest taboo, and social cohesion: Revisiting Westermarck and the case of the Israeli kibbutzim. American Journal of Sociology, 114(6), 1803–1842.

* Gipson, J. D., Bornstein, M., Berger, A., & Rocca, C. H. (2021). Desire to avoid pregnancy and contraceptive use among female methadone patients in Los Angeles. Contraception, 103(5), 322–327

* Donohue, J. J., & Levitt, S. D. (2001). The Impact of Legalized Abortion on Crime. The Quarterly Journal of Economics, 116(2), 379–420. https://doi.org/10.1162/00335530151144050

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