“The Third Option” – US Covert Action with Loch Johnson (Part 1 of 2)
SpyCast20 Dec 2022

“The Third Option” – US Covert Action with Loch Johnson (Part 1 of 2)

Summary Loch Johnson (Website, LinkedIn) joins Andrew (Twitter; LinkedIn) to discuss covert action aka “The Third Option.” He is the author of over 30 books on intelligence. What You’ll Learn Intelligence What is covert action Four types of covert action Foreign policy options: “War Power,” “Treaty Power,” and “Spy Power.” Examples of CA: Guatemala (1954), Indochina (1965), Afghanistan (2001), Iran (2020) Reflections Accountability The value of learning from past mistakes And much, much more … Episode Notes There is perhaps no better guest to join Andrew in this week’s exploration of covert action than Professor Emeritus at the University of Georgia Loch Johnson. Loch’s latest book, The Third Option: Covert Action and American Foreign Policy, examines the history of the complicated and sometimes controversial usage of covert action by the U.S. international affairs. Loch’s decades-long career in foreign policy and intelligence has brought him to the forefront of some of the most seminal moments within US intelligence reform: he served as special assistant to the chair of the Church Committee, staff director of the House Subcommittee on Intelligence Oversight, and worked directly with the chair of the Aspin-Brown Commission. In this two-part episode of SpyCast, Andrew and Loch unpack what makes a covert action operation successful, and how we can learn from intelligence failures and past mistakes. And… How many people have a society named after them? Loch does! Quote of the Week "History doesn't like to be shaped, it has a power all of its own, but we try to shape it at least at the margins, and we do that through covert action, sometimes called the third option…and it really comes in four packages. Package number one is propaganda… And then comes political covert actions…Thirdly is economic covert action…And then fourthly, and most dramatically, are paramilitary operations. These are war-like activities." – Loch Johnson. Resources SURFACE SKIM *Featured Resource* The Third Option, L. Johnson (Oxford, 2022) *Beginner Resources* Covert Action, E. Rosenbach & A. Peritz, Belfer Center (2009) [Background Memo] Looking back at the Church Committee, National Constitution Center (2019) [Blog Post] The Iran-Contra Affair, B. Craig, The Miller Center (2017) [Article] *SpyCasts* The Spymaster’s Prism: CIA Legend Jack Devine (2021) First Casualty: Inside the CIA Mission to Avenge 9/11 (2021) Author Debriefing: The Art of Intelligence: Lessons from a Life in the CIA’s Clandestine Service (2012) DEEPER DIVE Books A Covert Action: Reagan, the CIA and Poland, S. Jones (W.W. Norton, 2018) The Church Committee Confronts America's Spy Agencies, L. Johnson (UP of Kentucky, 2015) The Brilliant Disaster: JFK, Castro, and the Bay of Pigs, J. Rasenberger (Scribner, 2012) Executive Secrets: Covert Action and the Presidency, W. Daugherty (UP of Kentucky, 2006) Covert Action, G. Treverton (1987) Articles The Disturbing Story Of The Heart Attack Gun Invented By The CIA During The Cold War, M. Dunn, All That’s Interesting (2022) Video Iran-Contra: Reagan’s Scandal and the Unchecked Abuse of Presidential Power, US National Archives (2015) ‘Covert Action’ By U.S. To Assist Ukraine Could Be In Play, MSNBC News (2022) Primary Sources Commission on the U.S. Intelligence Community (1994-1996) Senate Select Committee with Respect to Intelligence Activities (1976) “Huge C.I.A. Operation Reported in U.S. against Antiwar Forces," S. Hersh, NYT (1974) FBI Records: COINTELPRO (1956-1971) Note on U.S. Covert Actions *Wildcard Resource* A 90s cartoon, evil beings threaten humanity, only the Wild C.A.T.s can save them: i.e., Covert Action Teams! “Covert action” as a concept has become part of the entertainment industry

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Ghost Stories: The Hunt for Russian Spies in the US

Ghost Stories: The Hunt for Russian Spies in the US

In the early 2000s, the FBI uncovered a team of Russian operatives who had been living double lives in the United States. They were posing as professors, journalists, financial planners, real estate and travel agents, all while sending information back to Moscow. Now, 15 years after they were arrested, Alan Kohler, the former Assistant Director of the FBI's Counterintelligence Division, tells us what it was like to supervise the case which came to be known as Operation Ghost Stories.  In this episode, Alan mentions a number of different photos and videos from the Ghost Stories investigation. You can view them all here through the FBI’s digital vault.  If you liked this episode, check out these links: "The Minions": Putin's Expendable Spies Spy Chat with Chris Costa | Guest: Alan E. Kohler, Jr. Curator's Corner: Kevin P. Riehle on Russian Intelligence Prefer to watch your podcasts? Find us on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/@IntlSpyMuseum/podcasts.  Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/  And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at SpyCast@Spymuseum.org.  This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC.

10 Juni 202531min

The Secret Navy and Their Hunt for a Nazi Sub

The Secret Navy and Their Hunt for a Nazi Sub

How do you catch an enemy’s submarine … and then make it vanish? That’s what the U.S. Navy’s elusive Tenth Fleet planned, as it tracked down Germany’s U-505 submarine. The mission came right before the Allies ran ashore on the beaches of Normandy in World War II. Historian Alexander Rose draws on long classified documents and intercepted transmissions to reveal the bold, salt-soaked heist. Alex's new book, Phantom Fleet: The Hunt for Nazi Submarine U-505 and World War II’s Most Daring Heist  is available now. If you liked this episode, check out these links: Agent Zo: The Extraordinary Woman Who Parachuted Into Nazi-Occupied Poland Enigma Traitors with Dermot Turing The Heavy Water Sabotage Raid Prefer to watch your podcasts? Find us on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/@IntlSpyMuseum/podcasts.  Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/  And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at SpyCast@Spymuseum.org.  This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC.

3 Juni 202533min

How Are Shifting Priorities Impacting National Security in America?

How Are Shifting Priorities Impacting National Security in America?

Most Americans would agree that the United States should be protected, but from whom … and how? Dr. Donell Harvin, the former Chief of Homeland Security and Intelligence for the District of Columbia, says the U.S. is taking its eye off the ball - focusing its large domestic intelligence apparatus in a direction that is politically expedient, but not in line with the most serious threats. If you liked this episode, check out these links: ​​ DOGE Layoffs and the Counterintelligence Threats They Pose | SpyCast Spy Chat with Chris Costa | Special Guest: Colin Clarke Prefer to watch your podcasts? Find us on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/@IntlSpyMuseum/podcasts.  Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/  And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at SpyCast@Spymuseum.org.  This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC.

27 Maj 202527min

Sharing Intelligence: Challenges between US and Ukraine

Sharing Intelligence: Challenges between US and Ukraine

After Russia’s full scale invasion of Ukraine, the U.S. rushed to create a secret center that set targets for the Ukrainians to destroy. But the counteroffensive of 2023 failed to achieve its goals. So, what went wrong? New York Times reporter Adam Entous spent more than a year reporting on this story. He joins SpyCast host Sasha Ingber to talk about what was going on behind the scenes, and the consequences that were felt acutely on the battlefield. Read Adam’s full report here.  The International Spy Museum has launched its first ever digital exhibition: Open Source: Ukraine & The Intelligence Revolution. Give it a visit to learn more about the role of publicly accessible information in intelligence collection and analysis.  If you liked this episode, check out these links: SpyCast Live: Escalation: Tracking the US-Ukraine Relationship An Evening with General David H. Petraeus SpyCast - “Zelensky, Ukraine & Intelligence” – with Simon Shuster Prefer to watch your podcasts? Find us on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/@IntlSpyMuseum/podcasts.  Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/  And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at SpyCast@Spymuseum.org.  This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC.

20 Maj 202531min

Stories From the President's Daily Brief

Stories From the President's Daily Brief

Conflict has been escalating between two nuclear powers–India and Pakistan. It started in April, after India blamed Pakistan for supporting militants who carried out a massacre in Kashmir. President Trump offered to help defuse the tensions.Throughout history, India and Pakistan’s hostility has been documented in the President's Daily Brief, a highly classified rundown of threats facing the United States. Former CIA officer David Priess, author of The President's Book of Secrets, tells us how the PDB mattered in relations between India and Pakistan. To learn more, check out David’s book, the President's Book of Secrets, the Untold Story of Intelligence briefings to America's Presidents. If you liked this episode, check out these links: Spy Chat with Chris Costa | Special Guest: Beth Sanner The President's Book of Secrets - Understanding the President’s Daily Brief (PDB) with David Priess Hot Topics: Intelligence Challenges in an Election Year Prefer to watch your podcasts? Find us on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/@IntlSpyMuseum/podcasts.  Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/  And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at SpyCast@Spymuseum.org.  This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC.

13 Maj 202523min

 The Minions: Putin's Expendable Spies

The Minions: Putin's Expendable Spies

They were a spy cell like no other — operating from quiet British suburbs, hailing from Bulgaria, and working on behalf of Russia. Their handler dubbed them “The Minions,” and their plots stretched across Europe and spanned honeytraps, abductions, and murder. At the time of this recording, six have been convicted and await sentencing. To parse out the case, we spoke with Gordon Corera, a British author and co-host of The Rest is Classified podcast. Check out The Rest is Classified here, or wherever you get your podcasts.  If you liked this episode, check out these links: Spy Chat with Chris Costa | Special Guest: Paul Whelan Russian Assassinations in the UK: Inside Three Notorious Cases with Historian Nigel West Curator's Corner: Kevin P. Riehle on Russian Intelligence Prefer to watch your podcasts? Find us on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/@IntlSpyMuseum/podcasts.  Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/  And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at SpyCast@Spymuseum.org.  This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC.

6 Maj 202530min

Escalation: Tracking the US-Ukraine Relationship

Escalation: Tracking the US-Ukraine Relationship

The United States and Ukraine have had a long, complicated history that has been defined by just as much partnership and collaboration as hesitation and disagreement. This dynamic is laid bare in the 7-part podcast series ‘Escalation,’ produced by our partners at Goat Rodeo, with the national security publication Lawfare. In April 2025, The International Spy Museum hosted a panel discussion on the Washington-Kyiv relationship moderated by SpyCast host Sasha Ingber, and featuring Ukrainian journalist Anastasiia Lapatina, Lawfare’s Managing Editor Tyler McBrien, Retired Brigadier General Kipling Kahler, and former National Security Council spokesperson Emily Horne. To listen to the whole Escalation series, visit: https://www.lawfaremedia.org/podcasts-multimedia/podcast/escalation Prefer to watch your podcasts? Find us on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/@IntlSpyMuseum/podcasts.   Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/  And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at SpyCast@Spymuseum.org.  This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC.

29 Apr 202538min

Where the ‘West V. Russia’ Plot Begins

Where the ‘West V. Russia’ Plot Begins

Why does Vladimir Putin often say that the West is conspiring to weaken Russia? Historian James Crossland traces this narrative back to a British intelligence officer and a failed assassination attempt on Vladimir Lenin in 1918. The story is featured in his new book, Rogue Agent, from Secret Plots to Psychological Warfare, the Untold Story of Robert Bruce Lockhart. James takes us into Lockhart’s psyche and lays out how a single moment in the dying days of Czarist Russia helped fuel a century of paranoia and rifts. SPY Artifact Highlight: Trotsky Ice Axe  If you liked this episode, check out these links: Sidney Reilly: Master Spy with Benny Morris Accessory to a Mission - Gadgets and Gear For The Well-Dressed Spy SpyCast | Rise of Devils - The Origin of Modern Terrorism with James Crossland Prefer to watch your podcasts? Find us on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/@IntlSpyMuseum/podcasts.   Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/  And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at SpyCast@Spymuseum.org.  This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC.

22 Apr 202531min

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