Inbox: Zhu Rongji and the Price of Modern China

Why does a kettle cost less than ten pounds?

What kind of official refuses to send the army against protesters in one decade, then puts thirty million people out of work in the next?

And when the man who built modern China spent his last twenty years saying nothing at all, what was he saying?

Peter Frankopan and Afua Hirsch disagree, at length and on the record, about whether the architect of the modern cheap economy was brave or simply ruthless.

Zhu Rongji died in Beijing in August, aged 97. Outside China his name means very little. Inside China, and inside every container ship leaving Ningbo, it means a great deal. He trained as an electrical engineer, was expelled from the Communist Party for speaking approvingly of economic reform in Hungary and Yugoslavia, spent five years doing manual labour during the Cultural Revolution, and came back to run Shanghai. In 1989 he refused to send the army against the city's protesters and went on television to talk them down instead. Then, as premier, he dismantled the iron rice bowl and cost somewhere between thirty and forty million people their jobs. Peter thinks that took nerve. Afua thinks ruthless and callous are the better words. Neither quite talks the other round.

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[0:00] Three deaths in eight weeks, in Havana, Washington and Beijing — and why the deputy often tells you more

[4:30] Zhu Rongji, dead at 97, and why a kettle costs less than ten pounds

[6:08] Expelled from the Party, then five years of manual labour

[8:38] Shanghai, 1989: the man who would not send in the army

[11:47] Grasping the large, letting go of the small — and the end of the iron rice bowl

[17:00] Brave or callous? Peter and Afua fail to agree

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Explore more from Peter and Afua — essays, sources, and ideas:

Substack: peterfrankopan.substack.com | afuahirsch.substack.com

Join Legacy+ for bonus episodes, early access, Q&A's, fewer adverts and more.

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Stay connected with Legacy:

Instagram: @originallegacypodcast

TikTok: @legacy_productions

Explore more from Peter and Afua — essays, sources, and ideas: Substack: peterfrankopan.substack.com | afuahirsch.substack.com

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