“The Skinny on American Intelligence & the Law” – with D.C. “Super Lawyer” Mark Zaid
SpyCast19 Mars 2024

“The Skinny on American Intelligence & the Law” – with D.C. “Super Lawyer” Mark Zaid

Summary Mark Zaid (X, LinkedIn) joins Andrew (X; LinkedIn) to discuss American intelligence and the law. You’ve heard of a “lawyer to the stars,” Mark is the “lawyer to the spies” What You’ll Learn Intelligence The quirks of being a lawyer in this space How the Espionage Act works in practice The trial of the Rosenbergs The origins of FOIA and its purpose The Legal foundations underpinning espionage and intelligence Reflections Challenging authority The delicate balance of secrecy And much, much more … Quotes of the Week “I still love working every day, 30 years later, because there's still something new. As much as I fight for declassification and transparency, I will at times also see information and learn of events where I go, “Oh, I get it. Yeah, that stuff cannot be known. That's incredible what we did. That's pretty wild.” – Mark Zaid. Resources SURFACE SKIM *SpyCasts* Agent of Betrayal, FBI Spy Robert Hanssen with CBS’ Major Garrett and Friends (2023) David Petraeus on Ukraine & Intelligence with the former CIA Director & 4* General (2023) Havana Syndrome – A Panel featuring Nicky Woolf, Marc Polymeropoulos, and Mark Zaid (2023) How Artificial Intelligence is Changing the Spy Game with Mike Susong (2023) *Beginner Resources* What Is a Whistleblower? Protections, Law, Importance, and Example, W. Kenton, Investopedia (2022) [Short article] What is a Lawyer? American Bar Association (2019) [Short article] Legal System Basics, CrashCourse, YouTube (2015) [8 min. video] DEEPER DIVE Books State of Silence: The Espionage Act and the Rise of America's Secrecy Regime, S. Lebovic (Basic Books, 2023) Ethel Rosenberg, A. Sebba (Griffin, 2022) Spies on Trial: True Tales of Espionage in the Courtroom, C. C. Kuhne (Rowman & Littlefield Publishers, 2019) Primary Sources A Letter from Aldrich Ames on Polygraph Testing (2000) Whistle Blower Protection Act (1989) DoD Polygraph Program (1984) National Security Decision Directive 84 (1983) Inspector General Act (1978) Freedom of Information Act (1966) Administrative Procedure Act (1946) Espionage Act (1917) *Wildcard Resource* John Adams, a 2008 HBO Mini-Series chronicling the Founding Father’s role in early America John Adams, much like Mark, was a lawyer dedicated to the right to representation. Adams, ever dedicated to the honor of his profession, was the only attorney who agreed to defend the British soldiers involved in the Boston Massacre. You can read the whole trial here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Investigating Historical Spies

Investigating Historical Spies

Researching spy history is a difficult business. Spies carefully cover their tracks and intelligence agencies classify everything and release their records only after many years, if at all. Given these difficulties how do historians reconstruct espionage history? SPY Historian Mark Stout explores this issue with Dr. R. Bruce Craig, the author of Treasonable Doubt: The Harry Dexter White Spy Case. Hear Craig describe how a receipt for $1.25 allowed him to discover the real identity of the mysterious “Agent Zero” who spied for the Soviets before World War II. Also listen as Craig tells of his forthcoming book about Alger Hiss and how he has brought lawsuits that forced the government to open up sealed grand jury records for Hiss and Julius and Ethel Rosenberg. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

8 Feb 201230min

The Intelligence War Against Terrorism

The Intelligence War Against Terrorism

Since 9/11, the United States Intelligence Community has expanded into an $80 billion behemoth and taken on many new tasks, for instance spying on terrorists in cyberspace and even becoming a combat organization in its own right. Are we getting value for our money? To what extent did the invasion of Iraq divert important intelligence resources from Afghanistan? And why is the FBI flying reconnaissance flights over northwest D.C.? Intelligence historian, Matthew Aid, the author of the new book Intel Wars: The Secret History of the Fight Against Terror, grapples with these and other questions in a discussion with SPY Historian Mark Stout. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

18 Jan 201236min

Intelligence and Espionage in the U.S. Civil War

Intelligence and Espionage in the U.S. Civil War

Spies, cavalry, and telescopes were the traditional intelligence tools available during the Civil War, but there was also cutting edge high tech: the telegraph and the observation balloon. How did Civil War generals combine these to help make strategic decisions? As we observe the 150th anniversary of the Civil War, SPY Historian Mark Stout discusses this question with Professor William Feis of Buena Vista University, the author of Grant’s Secret Service: The Intelligence War from Belmont to Appomattox. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

13 Jan 201231min

Author Debriefing: MH/CHAOS: The CIA’s Campaign against the Radical New Left and the Black Panthers

Author Debriefing: MH/CHAOS: The CIA’s Campaign against the Radical New Left and the Black Panthers

Operation MHCHAOS was the code name for a secret domestic spying program conducted by the Central Intelligence Agency in the late 1960s and early 1970s charged with unmasking any foreign influences on left wing protestors. CIA counterintelligence officer Frank Rafalko was a part of that operation. When The New York Times revealed MHCHAOS in 1974 and Congress investigated, MHCHAOS took its place in the pantheon of intelligence abuses. However, in his new book Rafalko says that the operation was justified and that the CIA was the logical agency to conduct it. Listen as he defends his perspective with dramatic intelligence collected on the New Left and black radicals. This event took place on 26 October 2011. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

19 Dec 201145min

The Silent Listener: British Eavesdropping in the Falklands War

The Silent Listener: British Eavesdropping in the Falklands War

D. J. Thorp, a signals intelligence officer in the British Army, spent many years eavesdropping on the hot spots of the Cold War in Europe and the Middle East. In 1982 he found himself on board a Royal Navy ship intercepting signals from the Argentinean military as it fought the British in the Falklands War. Listen in as Major Thorp describes to SPY Historian Mark Stout how signals intelligence influenced the course of that war, how his team uncovered an Argentinean plan for a counterattack that could have turned the tide of the war, and even how a signals intercept led British naval personnel to shave off their beards! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

16 Dec 201145min

J. Edgar Hoover: Fact vs. Fiction

J. Edgar Hoover: Fact vs. Fiction

Clint Eastwood’s movie, J. Edgar, gives a Hollywood take on the controversial Director of the FBI. However, many people have criticized the movie for whitewashing Hoover’s abuses while others have criticized it for its implication that Hoover may have been gay. Peter addresses these issues in discussion with Ray Batvinis, a former FBI special agent, a former Executive Director of the J. Edgar Hoover Foundation, and the author of the book, The Origins of FBI Counterintelligence. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

6 Dec 201136min

Uncompromised: The Rise, Fall, and Redemption of an Arab American Patriot in the CIA

Uncompromised: The Rise, Fall, and Redemption of an Arab American Patriot in the CIA

After a childhood in war-torn Lebanon with an abusive father, Nada Prouty jumped at the chance to forge her own path in America, a path that led to undercover work in the FBI, then the CIA. Her work earned her great respect from her colleagues but her promising career came to an end when federal investigators charged Prouty with passing intelligence to Hezbollah. Lacking sufficient evidence to make their case in court, prosecutors went to the media, suggesting that she had committed treason. Though the CIA and a federal judge eventually exonerated Prouty, she was dismissed from the Agency and stripped of her citizenship. In Uncompromised, Prouty tells her story in a bid to restore her name and reputation. This event took place on 15 November 2011. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

17 Nov 201154min

Identity, Espionage, and Social Media

Identity, Espionage, and Social Media

Who are your friends on Facebook? Are you sure? Thomas Ryan, co-founder of Provide Security, knows that you can’t always be certain. Why? Because he created the fictional Robin Sage, a cyber femme fatale, who quickly wormed her way into the confidence of national security professionals who should have known better. He conceived the experiment to expose weaknesses in the nation's defense and intelligence communities, but even he was surprised by its success. Robin Sage is just one of the fascinating and disturbing tricks of the online espionage trade that Ryan shared with SPY Historian Mark Stout. You may never friend anyone again… Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

9 Okt 201121min

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