Ep 132. Why Backgammon Can Help us Order the Disorder

Much ink has been spilled about the legal definition of the crime of Genocide and if Israel has committed it in Gaza or if Hamas committed it on October 7th. In this pod, we are not examining those legal or moral issues. Adopting a non-legal, and non-humanitarian frame of mind, we are going to examine what are the underlying geopolitical, historical, and diplomatic reasons for South Africa bringing a genocide case against Israel at the International Court of Justice (ICJ)?     In this episode of Disorder, Jason Pack speaks to Sasha Polakow-Suransky -- deputy editor of Foreign Policy and author of ‘The Unspoken Alliance: Israel's Secret Relationship with Apartheid South Africa’. The duo turn the telescope around and look squarely at South Africa, rather than looking at Israel or the Palestinians. They discuss the global implications of the ICJ case for South Africa and how it fits in the country’s decades long whiplash romances first with Israel then with the Palestinians, how South Africans see their role in the world, and whether South Africa’s actions and media campaign will further intrench ideas in the Global South that America’s stance on Israel’s actions in Gaza is grounded in hypocrisy. Then in our Ordering the Disorder segment, we debate is South Africa proposing an alternative order to the American-led international system or merely an alternative disorder?    Twitter: @DisorderShow    Subscribe to our Substack here   Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/     Producer: George McDonagh  Exec Producer: Neil Fearn    Show Notes Links    Read: ‘What South Africa Really Won at the ICJ’ by Sasha here   Read: ‘The Year Geopolitical Competition Returned to Africa’ by Sasha here     Listen to Today, Explained episode, ‘Israel at the International Court of Justice’ here     Read the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide here Get Sasha’s book The Unspoken Alliance: Israel's Secret Relationship with Apartheid South Africa here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

13 Feb 202442min

In April 2022, undeterred by his previous two poisonings, Russian opposition politician, historian, and free speech advocate Vladimir Kara-Murza made the incredibly courageous decision to re-enter Russia – despite his known opposition to Putin’s invasion of Ukraine two months earlier. What happened next was as tragic as it was predictable. A year later Vladimir was sentenced to 25 years in prison. Last Monday, he disappeared from the Siberian penal colony where he was being held, only much later re-emerging in solitary confinement in a different prison.   In this episode of Disorder, we speak to Evgenia Kara-Murza, a Russian human rights activist and Vladimir’s wife.  Evgenia shares about her upbringing in Russia’s Far East, how her husband was imprisoned while working to improve the country, and how what is happening within Russia “hurts” her deeply. She also unpacks how Western leaders bear significant responsibility for the direction taken by the regime of Vladimir Putin – to her mind choosing cowardice and to make money over the safeguarding of human rights. Evgenia finishes the interview talking about how already democratic countries need to stay alert and safeguard their rights and freedoms. To her, the full-scale invasion of Ukraine has shown: democracy is under threat – globally.  Twitter: @DisorderShow    Subscribe to our Substack here   Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/     Producer: George McDonagh  Exec Producer: Neil Fearn    Show Notes Links    Read Evgenia’s interview for Time here   Watch Vladimir’s documentary here   A profile on Vladimir by Meduza here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

6 Feb 20241h

We wanted to let you all in on a well guarded secret: there are actually other podcasts out there that try to Order the Disorder. The team behind the New European magazine produce a podcast called ‘The Two Matts’. We were really inspired by their recent treatment of how Germany is dealing with its neopopulism problem. In this bonus episode of Disorder, we present an excerpt from The Two Matts Jan 26th Show ‘Germany Fighting Fascism’ where Matt and Matt talk about the massive street protests against the AfD and the unique constitutional ways in which Germany can fight the rise of neopopulism.    Show Notes Links   Listen to the Two Matts here   Read Jason Pack’s recent article in The New European about how Bibi is just a run of the mill neopopulist here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

1 Feb 202419min

This week we examine the regional roles played by Egypt and Iran and discuss British diplomacy towards those countries over the last decade or so. Iran and Egypt offer a fascinating study in contrasts – in terms of their dealings with Israel and Hamas, as well as their posturing relative to the outside world.     So who better to help us understand these countries regional role than Alex’s former boss, Sir Geoffrey Adams, who served as British Ambassador both to Iran (2006-9) and to Egypt (2018-21). He served  also as Consul General in Jerusalem, the representative to the Palestinian Authority; as Foreign Office Director for the Middle East, and as DG Political – the chief political advisor in the Foreign Office. He is now an honorary lecturer at the Institute for Iranian Studies at the University of St Andrews.    Sir Geoffrey relates his experiences of how diplomacy ‘feels’ in Tehran and Cairo and explains why medium powers like Egypt and Iran cannot be dictated to by disunited Western powers. Alex and Jason try to Order the Disorder by discussing Iran’s role as a disordering power, Egypt’s role as a mediating one, and why the medium powers in the region need to step up.    Twitter: @DisorderShow  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/disorderpod/     Subscribe to our Substack: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/     Producer: George McDonagh  Exec Producer: Neil Fearn    Show Notes Links     Sir Geoffrey’s FCDO bio is available here His ‘Reflections on the Arab Spring Ten Years On’ can be accessed here    For more on the role of Iran as Disorderer please consult Ali Ansari in Ep4 here   For more on the regional role of Egypt and why Gaza is existential for Egypt according to Nathan Brown: pls consult in Ep16. The Struggle for Leadership of the Islamic World here   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

30 Jan 202459min

In this episode, Jason Pack and Alexandra Hall Hall open with their thoughts on the EU’s strengths and weaknesses – concluding that the old adage, ‘The EU is an economic colossus and a political pygmy’, is not too far off. To investigate how the EU leverages its trade clout, Alex interviews John Clarke – a British national who worked for more than 30 years as a trade negotiator for the EU. John tells us the tricks of the trade: how the US would steal trade dossiers during negotiations, how the psychology of negotiations works, and how the devil is in the details of free trade agreements.   He also describes how the EU’s trade treaties are like the different reciprocal drinking arrangements down at the pub. And of course, John gives Alex an insider’s perspective of ‘what went wrong’ over Brexit. In Ordering the Disorder, Jason and Alex discuss the lack of specific training that US and UK Ambassadors receive about negotiations, how the EU must navigate a fine line between the US and China, and how the rise of Neo-Populism in Europe could spell the end to EU’s trade negotiating prowess.    Twitter: @DisorderShow    Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/subscribe    Producer: George McDonagh  Exec Producer: Neil Fearn    Show Notes Links  For more visit here Read more about Europe’s Trade Ambitions here For more on the EU’s recent New Zealand trade deal visit here Find more on the tensions at play within EU read "Poland opposes extension of EU trade preferences for Ukraine” here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

23 Jan 202450min

As the Houthis attack ships in the Red Sea, Arthur Snell and Jason explore: 1) How this horrible crisis is actually an opportunity to create a coalition of orderers; 2) how Iran is not really able to use the Houthis as a proxy; 3) how one interpretation of the Houthi actions is as ‘global disordering’ rather than specifically supporting the Palestinians or a given outcome in Gaza; and 4) how there is an opportunity for a uniquely constructive role for Britain, drawing on its credibility and experience in protecting global shipping especially in a context where China refuses to engage.   Twitter: @DisorderShow    Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/subscribe    Producer: George McDonagh  Exec Producer: Neil Fearn    Show Notes Links    A good intro to Yemeni history from Time’s ‘Made by History’ can be found here.   What the US is doing here   What the UK is doing by Elisabeth Braw here   And what some think the US and UK should be doing here   Context around Anti-Semitism in Yemen here  Role of Saudi here   Listen to Arthur Snell’s podcast, Behind the Lines here   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

18 Jan 202450min

In this episode, Jason Pack and Alexandra Hall Hall disentangle the related concepts of corruption, illegality, embezzlement, and bribery. They discuss what happens when the laws of a given country allow legalized versions of ‘corruption in plain sight’ to flourish. They’ll look at two different case studies of this phenomenon: Britain and Libya. First, Alex talks to journalist and author Sam Bright about the unique type of ‘pay for access’ corruption that has infiltrated the British establishment. They’ll analyse how wealthy donors can buy meetings with senior officials within the Conservative Party, the implications of the UK’s failed Golden Visa Programme and how it has allowed oligarchs to embed themselves into the UK’s political and economic life, and how the British media’s cosy relationships with cabinet ministers leads to a lack of accountability and transparency.  Later in the episode, Jason talks to Husni Bey Husni, Libya’s most famous and successful entrepreneur and businessman. They’ll unpack how subsidies in Libya encourage corruption and pervert incentive structures and international markets. They dwell on the policy implications of these perversions and Husni argues that a libertarian approach is his personal solution to help Order the Disorder.   Finally, Jason and Alex discuss how to deter corruption in British politics, how the Libyans have perfected the Miss Manner’s Guide to Rigorously Correct Kleptocracy works, how the libertarian approach might (and might not) work, how regulations and cultural norms are needed, and how removing perverse incentive structures is essential as humans will always do whatever benefits them if they can get away with it.  Twitter: @DisorderShow    Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/subscribe    Producer: George McDonagh  Exec Producer: Neil Fearn    Show Notes Links    Get Sam Bright’s books Fortress London: The definitive book about Levelling Up and why it matters here And Bullingdon Club Britain: The Ransacking of a Nation here   Get Jason's book Libya and The Global Enduring Disorder here (And read about the Miss Manner’s Guide to Rigorously Correct Kleptocracy in Chapter 4)  Read more about Kleptocracy here   Read more about Husni here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

16 Jan 202452min

In this episode, Jason Pack is joined by Arthur Snell, and they speak to Professor Naho Mirumachi. Naho is a specialist on the politics of the environment. She is particularly interested in ‘the wars that were not fought’ over water usage. The trio discuss: what lessons can be learnt from international governance of water usage and other related collective action challenges, will there actually be ‘Water Wars’ in the future, and the challenges of international coordination over the usage of water.  Expanding outwards from historical and contemporary examples of water conflict and water sharing in the Nile Basin and Mekong Delta, the hosts ask Naho: given climate change and aridification, will there be enough fresh water to sustain a world population of 10 billion humans for the long term future?   In the Ordering the Disorder segment, the trio conclude that major states just tend not to fight over water. Or at least they haven’t as of yet. In fact, water diplomacy has been surprisingly successful over the past few decades and may point to certain lessons concerning how to incentivize optimal compromises in other fields like tax, security, or borders.   Twitter: @DisorderShow    Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/subscribe    Producer: George McDonagh  Exec Producer: Neil Fearn    Show Notes Links    Get Naho’s book Water: A Critical Introduction (Wiley) here   Read NAHO’s writing at Valuing water: a difficult but crucial step towards greater water justice here   Listen to Arthur Snell’s podcast, Behind the Lines, here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

9 Jan 202442min