BONUS Keeping Backlogs Lean With The Now-Next-Later-Never Roadmap Framework | Kent McDonald

BONUS Keeping Backlogs Lean With The Now-Next-Later-Never Roadmap Framework | Kent McDonald

BONUS: Keeping Backlogs Lean With The Now-Next-Later-Never Roadmap Framework with Kent McDonald

In this BONUS episode, we explore the art of backlog management with product management expert Kent McDonald. As someone with decades of experience in software product development, Kent shares practical strategies for keeping backlogs lean, meaningful, and focused on outcomes that truly matter. Learn how to escape the trap of bloated backlogs and implement a Now-Next-Later-Never approach that will transform your product management practice.

The Problem with Bloated Backlogs

"Some teams use backlogs as 'long term storage' devices."

Product backlogs often become unwieldy and difficult to manage because teams view them as a permanent repository for every idea that comes along. Kent explains that this "storage mentality" is one of the primary reasons backlogs grow out of control. Another common mistake is diving in too early and splitting items before they're actually ready to be worked on, which multiplies the backlog size unnecessarily. These practices lead to confusion, lost focus, and ultimately decrease a team's ability to deliver value efficiently.

The Now-Next-Later-Never Roadmap Framework

"You want to group things together on roughly categories of when you will attack it."

Kent walks us through the practical implementation of a Now-Next-Later-Never roadmap approach that keeps things manageable. This framework provides a simple but powerful way to organize initiatives based on their priority and timing. Instead of maintaining an endless list of requirements, teams can group work into these four buckets, making it easier to communicate priorities both internally and with stakeholders. Kent emphasizes that these roadmap items should be described in terms of outcomes rather than features, helping everyone stay focused on the value being delivered rather than specific implementations.

For more on the origin of the Now-Next-Later roadmap practice, see this article by Janna Bastow.

Making "Now" Work in Practice

"We only split items in the 'now' column."

When implementing the Now-Next-Later-Never approach, the "Now" column is where the magic happens. Kent advises:

  • Only split items that are in the "Now" column into actionable tasks

  • Express roadmap items in terms of outcomes or customer problems to solve

  • Limit the number of items in the "Now" column to maintain focus

  • List outcomes rather than detailed features to avoid having a large number of items

Kent explains that the "Later" and "Never" columns serve an important purpose in setting expectations with stakeholders about what won't be worked on immediately or at all.

Managing the Movement Between Roadmap Categories

"Items can move back and forth, to facilitate expectation setting."

The Now-Next-Later-Never roadmap isn't static. Kent provides practical advice on how to manage the flow of items between categories:

  • Revisit the roadmap regularly, ideally monthly

  • Consider reviewing the roadmap during sprint review sessions

  • Use this format when communicating with stakeholders for clearer expectation setting

  • Hold strong on the "Now" items to maintain focus and avoid constant reprioritization

This approach creates a dynamic but controlled environment where priorities can evolve without creating chaos or confusion.

Dealing with Backlog Bloat

"Create a 'museum', a set of items you can look at, but don't look at every day."

For teams struggling with already-bloated backlogs, Kent offers bold but effective advice:

  • Create a "museum" for items you want to preserve but don't need to see daily

  • Consider deleting your old backlog and starting fresh

  • Begin by asking: "What are the main outcomes we're trying to achieve?"

  • Focus on getting to a smaller set of bigger items, then sequence them appropriately

These approaches help teams overcome the fear of "losing" work while refocusing on what truly matters.

Maintaining a Lean Backlog

"Backlog items don't age well."

Kent's team maintains an impressively lean backlog of just 23 items across three brand websites. He shares the routines and guardrails that prevent backlog bloat from creeping back in:

  • Create a filter to control what gets into the backlog in the first place

  • Keep the Product Owner just slightly ahead of the development team

  • Avoid the anti-pattern of trying to keep all developers busy all the time

  • Remember that backlog items don't age well and lose relevance over time

These practices ensure the team stays focused on delivering current value rather than managing an ever-growing list of aging requirements.

About Kent McDonald

With decades in software product development, Kent is a go-to expert in product management, and agile strategy. He is a seasoned consultant and author of three books on agility, he helps teams cut through clutter to focus on what truly matters. When not optimizing workflows, he's exploring National Parks (52/63) or grooving to some jazz tunes.

You can link with Kent McDonald on LinkedIn, or follow Kent McDonaldn on Substack.

Avsnitt(200)

The Marathon Mindset—Building Agile Teams That Last Beyond Sprint Deadlines | Shawn Dsouza

The Marathon Mindset—Building Agile Teams That Last Beyond Sprint Deadlines | Shawn Dsouza

Shawn Dsouza: The Marathon Mindset—Building Agile Teams That Last Beyond Sprint Deadlines Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Shawn defines himself as a "people-first Scrum Master" who measures success not through metrics but through daily interactions and team growth. He contrasts two teams: one that hit deadlines but lacked collaboration (unsustainable success) versus another that struggled with deadlines but excelled in conversations and continuous improvement (sustainable growth). For Shawn, protecting deep work and fostering genuine team collaboration indicates true success. He emphasizes that product development is a marathon, not a sprint, and warns that lack of meaningful conversations will inevitably lead to team problems. In this segment, we refer to the book Clean Language by Sullivan and Rees. Featured Retrospective Format for the Week: Sprint Awards Shawn champions the Sprint Awards retrospective format, moving beyond viewing retrospectives as just another Scrum event to recognizing them as critical team development opportunities. In this format, team members give awards to colleagues for various contributions during the sprint, with each award recipient explaining why they were chosen. Shawn prefers face-to-face, offline retrospectives and always starts with ice breakers to gauge how the team feels—whether they feel heard and connected. He believes in experimenting with different retrospective formats since no single approach works for every situation. Self-reflection Question: How do you balance achieving deliverable outcomes with building sustainable team relationships and collaboration patterns? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] 🔥In the ruthless world of fintech, success isn't just about innovation—it's about coaching!🔥 Angela thought she was just there to coach a team. But now, she's caught in the middle of a corporate espionage drama that could make or break the future of digital banking. Can she help the team regain their mojo and outwit their rivals, or will the competition crush their ambitions? As alliances shift and the pressure builds, one thing becomes clear: this isn't just about the product—it's about the people. 🚨 Will Angela's coaching be enough? Find out in Shift: From Product to People—the gripping story of high-stakes innovation and corporate intrigue. Buy Now on Amazon [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] About Shawn Dsouza Shawn, a Mangalore native and Software Technology postgraduate from AIMIT, brings 8+ years of IT expertise, excelling as a Scrum Master fostering innovation and teamwork. Beyond technology, he leads SPARK, a social service initiative, and pursues his passion as an aquarist, nurturing vibrant aquatic ecosystems with dedication. You can link with Shawn Dsouza on LinkedIn.

18 Sep 13min

From AI Anxiety to AI Advantage: A Scrum Master's Experimental Approach | Shawn Dsouza

From AI Anxiety to AI Advantage: A Scrum Master's Experimental Approach | Shawn Dsouza

Shawn Dsouza: From AI Anxiety to AI Advantage: A Scrum Master's Experimental Approach Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Shawn faces the massive AI transformation currently reshaping the tech industry, acknowledging both its benefits and the fear it creates among professionals questioning their relevance. In his organization, he witnesses AI delivering wonders for some teams while others struggle and lose projects. Rather than viewing AI as an overwhelming wave, Shawn advocates for experimentation. He shares practical examples, like helping a Product Owner streamline story creation from Excel to JIRA using AI tools, and leveraging MIRO AI for team collaboration. His approach focuses on identifying friction points where AI experiments could add value while keeping conversations centered on possibilities rather than fears. Self-reflection Question: Instead of fearing technological changes like AI, how can you create small experiments to explore new possibilities and reduce friction in your current work processes? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] 🔥In the ruthless world of fintech, success isn't just about innovation—it's about coaching!🔥 Angela thought she was just there to coach a team. But now, she's caught in the middle of a corporate espionage drama that could make or break the future of digital banking. Can she help the team regain their mojo and outwit their rivals, or will the competition crush their ambitions? As alliances shift and the pressure builds, one thing becomes clear: this isn't just about the product—it's about the people. 🚨 Will Angela's coaching be enough? Find out in Shift: From Product to People—the gripping story of high-stakes innovation and corporate intrigue. Buy Now on Amazon [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] About Shawn Dsouza Shawn, a Mangalore native and Software Technology postgraduate from AIMIT, brings 8+ years of IT expertise, excelling as a Scrum Master fostering innovation and teamwork. Beyond technology, he leads SPARK, a social service initiative, and pursues his passion as an aquarist, nurturing vibrant aquatic ecosystems with dedication. You can link with Shawn Dsouza on LinkedIn.

17 Sep 13min

The Database Migration Disaster— Why Software Development Teams Need Psychological Safety | Shawn Dsouza

The Database Migration Disaster— Why Software Development Teams Need Psychological Safety | Shawn Dsouza

Shawn Dsouza: The Database Migration Disaster— Why Software Development Teams Need Psychological Safety Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Shawn worked with a skilled team migrating a database from local to cloud-based systems, supported by a strong Product Owner. Despite surface-level success in ceremonies, he noticed the team avoided discussing difficult topics. After three months of seemingly smooth progress, they delivered to pre-production only to discover 140 critical issues. The root cause? Unspoken disagreements and tensions that festered beneath polite ceremony facades. The situation deteriorated to the point where a senior engineer quit, teaching Shawn that pausing to address underlying issues doesn't cost time—it builds sustainability. In this segment, we refer to the episodes with Mahesh Jade, a previous guest on the Scrum Master Toolbox podcast. Featured Book of the Week: The Advice Trap by Michael Bungay Stanier Shawn discovered this transformative book when he realized he was talking too much in team meetings despite wanting to add value. The Advice Trap revealed how his instinct to give advice, though well-intentioned, was actually self-defeating. The book taught him to stay curious longer and ask better questions rather than rushing to provide solutions. As Shawn puts it, "The minute you think you have the answer you stop listening"—a lesson that fundamentally changed his coaching approach and helped him become more effective with his teams. Self-reflection Question: When working with teams, do you find yourself jumping to advice-giving mode, or do you stay curious long enough to truly understand the underlying challenges? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] 🔥In the ruthless world of fintech, success isn't just about innovation—it's about coaching!🔥 Angela thought she was just there to coach a team. But now, she's caught in the middle of a corporate espionage drama that could make or break the future of digital banking. Can she help the team regain their mojo and outwit their rivals, or will the competition crush their ambitions? As alliances shift and the pressure builds, one thing becomes clear: this isn't just about the product—it's about the people. 🚨 Will Angela's coaching be enough? Find out in Shift: From Product to People—the gripping story of high-stakes innovation and corporate intrigue. Buy Now on Amazon [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] About Shawn Dsouza Shawn, a Mangalore native and Software Technology postgraduate from AIMIT, brings 8+ years of IT expertise, excelling as a Scrum Master fostering innovation and teamwork. Beyond technology, he leads SPARK, a social service initiative, and pursues his passion as an aquarist, nurturing vibrant aquatic ecosystems with dedication. You can link with Shawn Dsouza on LinkedIn.

16 Sep 13min

When Scrum Masters Forget to Listen - A Team Trust Crisis in Agile Implementation | Shawn Dsouza

When Scrum Masters Forget to Listen - A Team Trust Crisis in Agile Implementation | Shawn Dsouza

Shawn Dsouza: When Scrum Masters Forget to Listen - A Team Trust Crisis in Agile Implementation Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Shawn shares a powerful lesson about the importance of listening before implementing. Working with a young, talented team drowning in firefighting, he rolled out Scrum in "full" without taking time to understand the team's context. Going through the motions of Scrum ceremonies without genuine team ownership led to dropping energy levels and lost trust. The turning point came when Shawn realized the team had lost faith in his approach, prompting him to rebuild the process collaboratively with team ownership at its core. This story highlights how good intentions can backfire when we prioritize frameworks over people. Self-reflection Question: Before implementing any new process or framework, how do you ensure you truly understand your team's current challenges and context rather than jumping straight to solutions? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] 🔥In the ruthless world of fintech, success isn't just about innovation—it's about coaching!🔥 Angela thought she was just there to coach a team. But now, she's caught in the middle of a corporate espionage drama that could make or break the future of digital banking. Can she help the team regain their mojo and outwit their rivals, or will the competition crush their ambitions? As alliances shift and the pressure builds, one thing becomes clear: this isn't just about the product—it's about the people. 🚨 Will Angela's coaching be enough? Find out in Shift: From Product to People—the gripping story of high-stakes innovation and corporate intrigue. Buy Now on Amazon [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] About Shawn Dsouza Shawn, a Mangalore native and Software Technology postgraduate from AIMIT, brings 8+ years of IT expertise, excelling as a Scrum Master fostering innovation and teamwork. Beyond technology, he leads SPARK, a social service initiative, and pursues his passion as an aquarist, nurturing vibrant aquatic ecosystems with dedication. You can link with Shawn Dsouza on LinkedIn.

15 Sep 14min

Problems vs. Solutions: The Great Product Owner Distinction | Bernie Maloney

Problems vs. Solutions: The Great Product Owner Distinction | Bernie Maloney

Bernie Maloney: Problems vs. Solutions: The Great Product Owner Distinction Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. The Great Product Owner: The Strategic Problem Solver Bernie describes an exemplary Product Owner from a stealth program sponsored by a CTO, where the company needed to create new intellectual property. This Great Product Owner understood that Agile operates in three dimensions: most organizations only focus on outputs and delivery (first dimension), some reach outcomes (second dimension), but the truly great ones operate in the third dimension of strategic or business agility - defining problems worth solving. This Product Owner knew that high-performing teams need to understand what problem is worth solving rather than just receiving solutions to build. They embraced the Mobius loop approach, focusing on discovering the right problems rather than jumping straight to solutions. In this segment, we refer to the Mobius Loop, and to Steve Blank's work on the job of a startup. We also refer to the episode with Elliott Parker on the critical importance of the "startup mindset" to foster innovation in larger organizations. The Bad Product Owner: The Backlog Jockey with Authority Issues Bernie identifies the anti-pattern of Product Owners being treated as mere "backlog jockeys" by their organizations, which forces them into solution-building mode rather than problem-solving mode. These Product Owners don't understand the importance of saying "no" and lack clarity about intent and goals. The worst case Bernie encountered was a team manager who also served as Product Owner, wielding positional authority that shut down team communication. This person would interrupt daily scrums, causing teams to revert to waiting for direction rather than self-organizing. The combination of unclear intent and positional authority creates a toxic environment that destroys team autonomy and psychological safety. Self-reflection Question: Is your Product Owner focused on defining problems worth solving, or are they primarily managing a backlog of predetermined solutions? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] 🔥In the ruthless world of fintech, success isn't just about innovation—it's about coaching!🔥 Angela thought she was just there to coach a team. But now, she's caught in the middle of a corporate espionage drama that could make or break the future of digital banking. Can she help the team regain their mojo and outwit their rivals, or will the competition crush their ambitions? As alliances shift and the pressure builds, one thing becomes clear: this isn't just about the product—it's about the people. 🚨 Will Angela's coaching be enough? Find out in Shift: From Product to People—the gripping story of high-stakes innovation and corporate intrigue. Buy Now on Amazon [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] About Bernie Maloney Bernie Maloney has helped teams grow businesses to beyond $4B / year, delivering products from consumer electronics to network infrastructure to services & payments. He helps clients achieve performance breakthroughs with their teams, organizations and themselves, and believes that leads both to outrageous effectiveness, and a whole lot more fun. You can link with Bernie Maloney on LinkedIn, and visit Bernie's website and YouTube Channel.

12 Sep 19min

From Permission-Seeking to Forgiveness-Begging—Agile Team Evolution in Self-Management | Bernie Maloney

From Permission-Seeking to Forgiveness-Begging—Agile Team Evolution in Self-Management | Bernie Maloney

Bernie Maloney: From Permission-Seeking to Forgiveness-Begging—Agile Team Evolution in Self-Management Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Bernie defines success for Scrum Masters as creating teams that can thrive and do their best work independently. His ultimate goal is to make himself unnecessary - developing self-directing teams that step out of waiting for direction and instead seek permission or even beg forgiveness when needed. Using the "Circles and Soup" framework, Bernie helps teams stretch their circles of influence and control. He recognizes that every manager wants teams to succeed but may lack the necessary tools, making it crucial for Scrum Masters to coach managers as well. Bernie recommends building a backlog of organizational impediments and focusing on the top priority that will move the ball forward most effectively. Featured Retrospective Format for the Week: Sailboat Bernie champions the Sailboat retrospective format for its simplicity and adaptability. While the basic format is straightforward, he appreciates that you can add layers of complexity as needed. Bernie tends to keep retrospectives simple and also mentions the "What the Duck?" technique as another valuable retrospective tool. He suggests incorporating creative elements like having people build LEGO representations of what they're discussing, which helps teams visualize and engage with concepts more effectively. To know more about LEGO Serious Play, check out the Serious Play book. In this segment, we also refer to Dissociation in Psychology, which helps with "third position" coaching/thinking, and Bernie's video on creative retrospective formats. Self-reflection Question: How are you measuring whether your teams are becoming more self-directing, and what specific behaviors indicate they're ready to operate with less guidance? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] 🔥In the ruthless world of fintech, success isn't just about innovation—it's about coaching!🔥 Angela thought she was just there to coach a team. But now, she's caught in the middle of a corporate espionage drama that could make or break the future of digital banking. Can she help the team regain their mojo and outwit their rivals, or will the competition crush their ambitions? As alliances shift and the pressure builds, one thing becomes clear: this isn't just about the product—it's about the people. 🚨 Will Angela's coaching be enough? Find out in Shift: From Product to People—the gripping story of high-stakes innovation and corporate intrigue. Buy Now on Amazon [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] About Bernie Maloney Bernie Maloney has helped teams grow businesses to beyond $4B / year, delivering products from consumer electronics to network infrastructure to services & payments. He helps clients achieve performance breakthroughs with their teams, organizations and themselves, and believes that leads both to outrageous effectiveness, and a whole lot more fun. You can link with Bernie Maloney on LinkedIn, and visit Bernie's website and YouTube Channel.

11 Sep 14min

Mastering Complexity Through Systems Thinking and NLP Coaching | Bernie Maloney

Mastering Complexity Through Systems Thinking and NLP Coaching | Bernie Maloney

Bernie Maloney: Mastering Complexity Through Systems Thinking and NLP Coaching Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Bernie addresses the constant challenge of mid-sprint changes by asking the crucial question: "what do you want to trade in for that new request?" His approach centers on recognizing that everyone is trying to do their best with what they have, using techniques from NLP and the three coaching positions to help people see the whole system. Bernie emphasizes rapport building as a key skill for Scrum Masters and warns against the anti-pattern of becoming judgmental when challenges arise. He advocates for moving from a plan-and-predict mentality to sense-and-respond thinking, highlighting the importance of conducting retrospectives once challenges are solved. Bernie's coaching philosophy revolves around helping people step into the "third position" - a dissociated perspective that enables better problem-solving and systems thinking. In this episode, we refer to Neuro-linguistic Programming (NLP), and to Instant Rapport by Michael Brooks, a primer on NLP. We also refer to the plan-and-predict vs sense-and-respond mentality. Self-reflection Question: How effectively are you helping your teams and stakeholders see the whole system when challenges arise, rather than just focusing on individual pain points? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] 🔥In the ruthless world of fintech, success isn't just about innovation—it's about coaching!🔥 Angela thought she was just there to coach a team. But now, she's caught in the middle of a corporate espionage drama that could make or break the future of digital banking. Can she help the team regain their mojo and outwit their rivals, or will the competition crush their ambitions? As alliances shift and the pressure builds, one thing becomes clear: this isn't just about the product—it's about the people. 🚨 Will Angela's coaching be enough? Find out in Shift: From Product to People—the gripping story of high-stakes innovation and corporate intrigue. Buy Now on Amazon [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] About Bernie Maloney Bernie Maloney has helped teams grow businesses to beyond $4B / year, delivering products from consumer electronics to network infrastructure to services & payments. He helps clients achieve performance breakthroughs with their teams, organizations and themselves, and believes that leads both to outrageous effectiveness, and a whole lot more fun. You can link with Bernie Maloney on LinkedIn, and visit Bernie's website and YouTube Channel.

10 Sep 18min

The Triangulation Technique—Coaching Agile Teams Through Challenges | Bernie Maloney

The Triangulation Technique—Coaching Agile Teams Through Challenges | Bernie Maloney

Bernie Maloney: The Triangulation Technique—Coaching Agile Teams Through Challenges Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Bernie identifies critical patterns that cause teams to self-destruct, with lack of clarity about intention being the most common culprit. When teams are treated as mere "task workers" without clear vision, strategy, or goals, they become depressed and directionless. Some teams seek forgiveness after failed experiments, while others get stuck seeking permission without taking enough self-leadership. Bernie emphasizes that waiting for direction is fundamentally self-destructive behavior, and Scrum Masters must create safety for teams to reach high performance. He introduces the coaching technique of triangulation, where problems become a third point that coach and coachee examine together, side by side, rather than facing each other in opposition. In this segment, we talk about "What the Duck", a Lego Serious Play workshop. Featured Book of the Week: Start with Why by Simon Sinek Bernie champions "Start with Why" by Simon Sinek as essential reading for Scrum Masters working to transform team culture. He explains that compelling stories are how leaders truly influence others, following the sequence of Attention-Emotion-Reason. This book helps Scrum Masters understand that their job fundamentally involves changing culture, and leaders must demonstrate the change they want to see. Bernie connects this to the broader leadership challenge of developing coaching and mentoring skills within organizational structures. During this segment, we also refer to the following books: Drive, By Dan Pink Change the Culture, Change the Game, by Connors et al. The Secret Language of Leadership, by Denning Too Many Bosses, Too Few Leaders, by Peshawaria The Geek Way, by McAfee Right Kind of Wrong, by Edmondson Self-reflection Question: What patterns of self-destructive behavior might your teams be exhibiting, and how could you help them move from seeking permission to taking ownership? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] 🔥In the ruthless world of fintech, success isn't just about innovation—it's about coaching!🔥 Angela thought she was just there to coach a team. But now, she's caught in the middle of a corporate espionage drama that could make or break the future of digital banking. Can she help the team regain their mojo and outwit their rivals, or will the competition crush their ambitions? As alliances shift and the pressure builds, one thing becomes clear: this isn't just about the product—it's about the people. 🚨 Will Angela's coaching be enough? Find out in Shift: From Product to People—the gripping story of high-stakes innovation and corporate intrigue. Buy Now on Amazon [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] About Bernie Maloney Bernie Maloney has helped teams grow businesses to beyond $4B / year, delivering products from consumer electronics to network infrastructure to services & payments. He helps clients achieve performance breakthroughs with their teams, organizations and themselves, and believes that leads both to outrageous effectiveness, and a whole lot more fun. You can link with Bernie Maloney on LinkedIn, and visit Bernie's website and YouTube Channel.

9 Sep 16min

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