BONUS The End of Product Management? Three Experts Reveal the Unstoppable Rise of Product Engineers | Anton Zaides, Rafa Paez, and Max Piechota

BONUS The End of Product Management? Three Experts Reveal the Unstoppable Rise of Product Engineers | Anton Zaides, Rafa Paez, and Max Piechota

BONUS: The End of Product Management? Three Experts Reveal the Unstoppable Rise of Product Engineers With Anton Zaides, Rafa Paez, and Max Piechota

In this BONUS episode, we explore the emerging concept of the Product Engineer with three experts in the field: Anton Zaides, Rafa Paez, and Max Piechota. Together, they discuss how software engineers are evolving beyond just technical skills to embrace product thinking, business understanding, and customer empathy. This shift represents a move toward what they call "M-skilled" professionals who combine technical expertise with product sensibility to create greater impact.

The Evolution of Software Engineering

"The role of the software engineer is evolving to a product engineer...they understand what to build and why they are building it."

Rafa Paez kicks off the conversation by sharing insights from his article on Substack, titled "The Rise of the 100x Product Engineer." He explains how the modern software engineer is taking on greater ownership of their work, focusing not just on writing code but understanding the underlying business reasons for features. This new breed of engineers thinks critically about product metrics, challenges assumptions, and takes extreme ownership of outcomes rather than just outputs.

Breaking Product Management

"Engineers don't really care about what they work on...but what if they did?"

Anton Zaides discusses his provocative Substack article "Product Management is broken, a change is coming," where he challenges the traditional separation between engineers and product decisions. He describes the phenomenon of the "ZOOM-based product manager" who remains disconnected from both users and engineers, and contrasts this with engineers who genuinely care about the products they build. Anton argues that when engineers are invested in the product outcomes, the entire development process improves.

For a podcast episode with Anton Zaides about the Product Management is broken article, listen to this Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast episode.

Measuring What Matters

"We need to measure the product outcome, the customer value and incentivize developers based on that."

Max Piechota shares how his journey toward product engineering began through conversations with his CEO about measuring software engineer performance. His research led him to realize that traditional engineering metrics often miss what truly matters - the value delivered to customers. Max advocates for aligning developer incentives with product outcomes rather than just code output, representing a fundamental shift in how we evaluate technical contributions.

Catalyzing the Transformation

"What helped me change was working with those people that wanted to create products."

The conversation turns to practical ways to foster this evolution toward product engineering:

  • Max describes how exposure to product-oriented colleagues and learning about the Lean Startup methodology transformed his perspective as a developer.

  • Anton outlines a three-step approach: helping engineers see metrics and user interactions, building business literacy, and connecting more deeply with the domain.

  • The group discusses the importance of helping engineers understand concepts like gross margin and the AARRR framework (Acquisition, Activation, Retention, Revenue, Referral).

Beyond Solutions to Problems

"Often we only focus on the solution, without understanding the actual problem we are trying to solve."

One crucial insight from the conversation is the need for engineers to take a step back from solution mode and better understand the underlying problems. The panel shares practical tips:

  • Clarify how the business works and identify opportunities for improvement

  • Be thoughtful about how developers are incentivized

  • Connect technical decisions to financial outcomes

  • Focus on landing page conversion and other customer-facing metrics when they're the bottleneck to growth

This mindset shift enables engineers to make more strategic decisions about where to invest their technical efforts for maximum impact.

About Anton Zaides, Rafa Páez, Max Piechota

Anton Zaides is the founder of Manager.dev, where he shares insights about engineering management and product development. With extensive experience in both engineering and product leadership roles, Anton is passionate about bridging the gap between technical execution and product vision.

You can link with Anton Zaides on Substack. For inquiries, reach him at Anton@manager.dev.

Rafa Paez is a product engineering advocate who wrote the influential article "The Rise of the 100x Product Engineer." Through his work, Rafa explores how engineers can expand their impact by embracing product thinking and business understanding alongside technical skills.

You can link with Rafa Paez on Substack. Find more of his work at rafapaez.com.

Max Piechota is a thought leader in the engineering productivity space who has researched effective ways to measure and improve developer performance. He advocates for outcome-based metrics that focus on customer value rather than code output.

You can link with Max Piechota on Substack.

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Beyond Product Knowledge—The Hidden Skills Every Product Owner Needs | Shawn Dsouza

Beyond Product Knowledge—The Hidden Skills Every Product Owner Needs | Shawn Dsouza

Shawn Dsouza: Beyond Product Knowledge—The Hidden Skills Every Product Owner Needs Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Shawn explores both ends of the Product Owner spectrum through real experiences. On one side, he addresses the "Forced" or "Accidental" Product Owner—a common but problematic pattern where organizations appoint someone based solely on product knowledge. He shares the story of a QA professional thrust into the PO role who knew the product inside out but lacked other essential PO skills, frustrating the team with inadequate responses. Through coaching questions inspired by "The Advice Trap," Shawn helped this reluctant PO reflect on responsibilities and develop confidence beyond technical knowledge. The Great Product Owner: The Story-Crafting Superstar Shawn celebrates a Product Owner who elevated user story writing to an art form—"the Picasso of writing user stories." This exceptional PO co-crafted clear, well-structured stories with the team and used AI to refine stories and acceptance criteria. Her meticulous preparation included intensive refinement sessions before vacations and expert story slicing techniques. By handling requirements clarity superbly, she freed the team to focus entirely on problem-solving rather than deciphering what needed to be built. The Bad Product Owner: The Forced/Accidental Product Owner Organizations frequently make the mistake of appointing the person with the highest product knowledge as Product Owner, assuming technical expertise translates to PO effectiveness. However, the Product Owner role requires diverse skills beyond product knowledge—stakeholder management, prioritization, communication, and strategic thinking. When a QA professional was thrust into this role, their deep product understanding couldn't compensate for underdeveloped PO competencies, leading to team frustration and project complications. In this segment, we refer to the Coach Your PO e-course published by your Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast! Self-reflection Question: What skills beyond domain expertise should you develop or look for when transitioning into or selecting someone for the Product Owner role? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] 🔥In the ruthless world of fintech, success isn't just about innovation—it's about coaching!🔥 Angela thought she was just there to coach a team. But now, she's caught in the middle of a corporate espionage drama that could make or break the future of digital banking. Can she help the team regain their mojo and outwit their rivals, or will the competition crush their ambitions? As alliances shift and the pressure builds, one thing becomes clear: this isn't just about the product—it's about the people. 🚨 Will Angela's coaching be enough? Find out in Shift: From Product to People—the gripping story of high-stakes innovation and corporate intrigue. Buy Now on Amazon [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] About Shawn Dsouza Shawn, a Mangalore native and Software Technology postgraduate from AIMIT, brings 8+ years of IT expertise, excelling as a Scrum Master fostering innovation and teamwork. Beyond technology, he leads SPARK, a social service initiative, and pursues his passion as an aquarist, nurturing vibrant aquatic ecosystems with dedication. You can link with Shawn Dsouza on LinkedIn.

19 Sep 15min

The Marathon Mindset—Building Agile Teams That Last Beyond Sprint Deadlines | Shawn Dsouza

The Marathon Mindset—Building Agile Teams That Last Beyond Sprint Deadlines | Shawn Dsouza

Shawn Dsouza: The Marathon Mindset—Building Agile Teams That Last Beyond Sprint Deadlines Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Shawn defines himself as a "people-first Scrum Master" who measures success not through metrics but through daily interactions and team growth. He contrasts two teams: one that hit deadlines but lacked collaboration (unsustainable success) versus another that struggled with deadlines but excelled in conversations and continuous improvement (sustainable growth). For Shawn, protecting deep work and fostering genuine team collaboration indicates true success. He emphasizes that product development is a marathon, not a sprint, and warns that lack of meaningful conversations will inevitably lead to team problems. In this segment, we refer to the book Clean Language by Sullivan and Rees. Featured Retrospective Format for the Week: Sprint Awards Shawn champions the Sprint Awards retrospective format, moving beyond viewing retrospectives as just another Scrum event to recognizing them as critical team development opportunities. In this format, team members give awards to colleagues for various contributions during the sprint, with each award recipient explaining why they were chosen. Shawn prefers face-to-face, offline retrospectives and always starts with ice breakers to gauge how the team feels—whether they feel heard and connected. He believes in experimenting with different retrospective formats since no single approach works for every situation. Self-reflection Question: How do you balance achieving deliverable outcomes with building sustainable team relationships and collaboration patterns? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] 🔥In the ruthless world of fintech, success isn't just about innovation—it's about coaching!🔥 Angela thought she was just there to coach a team. But now, she's caught in the middle of a corporate espionage drama that could make or break the future of digital banking. Can she help the team regain their mojo and outwit their rivals, or will the competition crush their ambitions? As alliances shift and the pressure builds, one thing becomes clear: this isn't just about the product—it's about the people. 🚨 Will Angela's coaching be enough? Find out in Shift: From Product to People—the gripping story of high-stakes innovation and corporate intrigue. Buy Now on Amazon [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] About Shawn Dsouza Shawn, a Mangalore native and Software Technology postgraduate from AIMIT, brings 8+ years of IT expertise, excelling as a Scrum Master fostering innovation and teamwork. Beyond technology, he leads SPARK, a social service initiative, and pursues his passion as an aquarist, nurturing vibrant aquatic ecosystems with dedication. You can link with Shawn Dsouza on LinkedIn.

18 Sep 13min

From AI Anxiety to AI Advantage: A Scrum Master's Experimental Approach | Shawn Dsouza

From AI Anxiety to AI Advantage: A Scrum Master's Experimental Approach | Shawn Dsouza

Shawn Dsouza: From AI Anxiety to AI Advantage: A Scrum Master's Experimental Approach Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Shawn faces the massive AI transformation currently reshaping the tech industry, acknowledging both its benefits and the fear it creates among professionals questioning their relevance. In his organization, he witnesses AI delivering wonders for some teams while others struggle and lose projects. Rather than viewing AI as an overwhelming wave, Shawn advocates for experimentation. He shares practical examples, like helping a Product Owner streamline story creation from Excel to JIRA using AI tools, and leveraging MIRO AI for team collaboration. His approach focuses on identifying friction points where AI experiments could add value while keeping conversations centered on possibilities rather than fears. Self-reflection Question: Instead of fearing technological changes like AI, how can you create small experiments to explore new possibilities and reduce friction in your current work processes? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] 🔥In the ruthless world of fintech, success isn't just about innovation—it's about coaching!🔥 Angela thought she was just there to coach a team. But now, she's caught in the middle of a corporate espionage drama that could make or break the future of digital banking. Can she help the team regain their mojo and outwit their rivals, or will the competition crush their ambitions? As alliances shift and the pressure builds, one thing becomes clear: this isn't just about the product—it's about the people. 🚨 Will Angela's coaching be enough? Find out in Shift: From Product to People—the gripping story of high-stakes innovation and corporate intrigue. Buy Now on Amazon [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] About Shawn Dsouza Shawn, a Mangalore native and Software Technology postgraduate from AIMIT, brings 8+ years of IT expertise, excelling as a Scrum Master fostering innovation and teamwork. Beyond technology, he leads SPARK, a social service initiative, and pursues his passion as an aquarist, nurturing vibrant aquatic ecosystems with dedication. You can link with Shawn Dsouza on LinkedIn.

17 Sep 13min

The Database Migration Disaster— Why Software Development Teams Need Psychological Safety | Shawn Dsouza

The Database Migration Disaster— Why Software Development Teams Need Psychological Safety | Shawn Dsouza

Shawn Dsouza: The Database Migration Disaster— Why Software Development Teams Need Psychological Safety Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Shawn worked with a skilled team migrating a database from local to cloud-based systems, supported by a strong Product Owner. Despite surface-level success in ceremonies, he noticed the team avoided discussing difficult topics. After three months of seemingly smooth progress, they delivered to pre-production only to discover 140 critical issues. The root cause? Unspoken disagreements and tensions that festered beneath polite ceremony facades. The situation deteriorated to the point where a senior engineer quit, teaching Shawn that pausing to address underlying issues doesn't cost time—it builds sustainability. In this segment, we refer to the episodes with Mahesh Jade, a previous guest on the Scrum Master Toolbox podcast. Featured Book of the Week: The Advice Trap by Michael Bungay Stanier Shawn discovered this transformative book when he realized he was talking too much in team meetings despite wanting to add value. The Advice Trap revealed how his instinct to give advice, though well-intentioned, was actually self-defeating. The book taught him to stay curious longer and ask better questions rather than rushing to provide solutions. As Shawn puts it, "The minute you think you have the answer you stop listening"—a lesson that fundamentally changed his coaching approach and helped him become more effective with his teams. Self-reflection Question: When working with teams, do you find yourself jumping to advice-giving mode, or do you stay curious long enough to truly understand the underlying challenges? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] 🔥In the ruthless world of fintech, success isn't just about innovation—it's about coaching!🔥 Angela thought she was just there to coach a team. But now, she's caught in the middle of a corporate espionage drama that could make or break the future of digital banking. Can she help the team regain their mojo and outwit their rivals, or will the competition crush their ambitions? As alliances shift and the pressure builds, one thing becomes clear: this isn't just about the product—it's about the people. 🚨 Will Angela's coaching be enough? Find out in Shift: From Product to People—the gripping story of high-stakes innovation and corporate intrigue. Buy Now on Amazon [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] About Shawn Dsouza Shawn, a Mangalore native and Software Technology postgraduate from AIMIT, brings 8+ years of IT expertise, excelling as a Scrum Master fostering innovation and teamwork. Beyond technology, he leads SPARK, a social service initiative, and pursues his passion as an aquarist, nurturing vibrant aquatic ecosystems with dedication. You can link with Shawn Dsouza on LinkedIn.

16 Sep 13min

When Scrum Masters Forget to Listen - A Team Trust Crisis in Agile Implementation | Shawn Dsouza

When Scrum Masters Forget to Listen - A Team Trust Crisis in Agile Implementation | Shawn Dsouza

Shawn Dsouza: When Scrum Masters Forget to Listen - A Team Trust Crisis in Agile Implementation Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Shawn shares a powerful lesson about the importance of listening before implementing. Working with a young, talented team drowning in firefighting, he rolled out Scrum in "full" without taking time to understand the team's context. Going through the motions of Scrum ceremonies without genuine team ownership led to dropping energy levels and lost trust. The turning point came when Shawn realized the team had lost faith in his approach, prompting him to rebuild the process collaboratively with team ownership at its core. This story highlights how good intentions can backfire when we prioritize frameworks over people. Self-reflection Question: Before implementing any new process or framework, how do you ensure you truly understand your team's current challenges and context rather than jumping straight to solutions? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] 🔥In the ruthless world of fintech, success isn't just about innovation—it's about coaching!🔥 Angela thought she was just there to coach a team. But now, she's caught in the middle of a corporate espionage drama that could make or break the future of digital banking. Can she help the team regain their mojo and outwit their rivals, or will the competition crush their ambitions? As alliances shift and the pressure builds, one thing becomes clear: this isn't just about the product—it's about the people. 🚨 Will Angela's coaching be enough? Find out in Shift: From Product to People—the gripping story of high-stakes innovation and corporate intrigue. Buy Now on Amazon [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] About Shawn Dsouza Shawn, a Mangalore native and Software Technology postgraduate from AIMIT, brings 8+ years of IT expertise, excelling as a Scrum Master fostering innovation and teamwork. Beyond technology, he leads SPARK, a social service initiative, and pursues his passion as an aquarist, nurturing vibrant aquatic ecosystems with dedication. You can link with Shawn Dsouza on LinkedIn.

15 Sep 14min

Problems vs. Solutions: The Great Product Owner Distinction | Bernie Maloney

Problems vs. Solutions: The Great Product Owner Distinction | Bernie Maloney

Bernie Maloney: Problems vs. Solutions: The Great Product Owner Distinction Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. The Great Product Owner: The Strategic Problem Solver Bernie describes an exemplary Product Owner from a stealth program sponsored by a CTO, where the company needed to create new intellectual property. This Great Product Owner understood that Agile operates in three dimensions: most organizations only focus on outputs and delivery (first dimension), some reach outcomes (second dimension), but the truly great ones operate in the third dimension of strategic or business agility - defining problems worth solving. This Product Owner knew that high-performing teams need to understand what problem is worth solving rather than just receiving solutions to build. They embraced the Mobius loop approach, focusing on discovering the right problems rather than jumping straight to solutions. In this segment, we refer to the Mobius Loop, and to Steve Blank's work on the job of a startup. We also refer to the episode with Elliott Parker on the critical importance of the "startup mindset" to foster innovation in larger organizations. The Bad Product Owner: The Backlog Jockey with Authority Issues Bernie identifies the anti-pattern of Product Owners being treated as mere "backlog jockeys" by their organizations, which forces them into solution-building mode rather than problem-solving mode. These Product Owners don't understand the importance of saying "no" and lack clarity about intent and goals. The worst case Bernie encountered was a team manager who also served as Product Owner, wielding positional authority that shut down team communication. This person would interrupt daily scrums, causing teams to revert to waiting for direction rather than self-organizing. The combination of unclear intent and positional authority creates a toxic environment that destroys team autonomy and psychological safety. Self-reflection Question: Is your Product Owner focused on defining problems worth solving, or are they primarily managing a backlog of predetermined solutions? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] 🔥In the ruthless world of fintech, success isn't just about innovation—it's about coaching!🔥 Angela thought she was just there to coach a team. But now, she's caught in the middle of a corporate espionage drama that could make or break the future of digital banking. Can she help the team regain their mojo and outwit their rivals, or will the competition crush their ambitions? As alliances shift and the pressure builds, one thing becomes clear: this isn't just about the product—it's about the people. 🚨 Will Angela's coaching be enough? Find out in Shift: From Product to People—the gripping story of high-stakes innovation and corporate intrigue. Buy Now on Amazon [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] About Bernie Maloney Bernie Maloney has helped teams grow businesses to beyond $4B / year, delivering products from consumer electronics to network infrastructure to services & payments. He helps clients achieve performance breakthroughs with their teams, organizations and themselves, and believes that leads both to outrageous effectiveness, and a whole lot more fun. You can link with Bernie Maloney on LinkedIn, and visit Bernie's website and YouTube Channel.

12 Sep 19min

From Permission-Seeking to Forgiveness-Begging—Agile Team Evolution in Self-Management | Bernie Maloney

From Permission-Seeking to Forgiveness-Begging—Agile Team Evolution in Self-Management | Bernie Maloney

Bernie Maloney: From Permission-Seeking to Forgiveness-Begging—Agile Team Evolution in Self-Management Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Bernie defines success for Scrum Masters as creating teams that can thrive and do their best work independently. His ultimate goal is to make himself unnecessary - developing self-directing teams that step out of waiting for direction and instead seek permission or even beg forgiveness when needed. Using the "Circles and Soup" framework, Bernie helps teams stretch their circles of influence and control. He recognizes that every manager wants teams to succeed but may lack the necessary tools, making it crucial for Scrum Masters to coach managers as well. Bernie recommends building a backlog of organizational impediments and focusing on the top priority that will move the ball forward most effectively. Featured Retrospective Format for the Week: Sailboat Bernie champions the Sailboat retrospective format for its simplicity and adaptability. While the basic format is straightforward, he appreciates that you can add layers of complexity as needed. Bernie tends to keep retrospectives simple and also mentions the "What the Duck?" technique as another valuable retrospective tool. He suggests incorporating creative elements like having people build LEGO representations of what they're discussing, which helps teams visualize and engage with concepts more effectively. To know more about LEGO Serious Play, check out the Serious Play book. In this segment, we also refer to Dissociation in Psychology, which helps with "third position" coaching/thinking, and Bernie's video on creative retrospective formats. Self-reflection Question: How are you measuring whether your teams are becoming more self-directing, and what specific behaviors indicate they're ready to operate with less guidance? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] 🔥In the ruthless world of fintech, success isn't just about innovation—it's about coaching!🔥 Angela thought she was just there to coach a team. But now, she's caught in the middle of a corporate espionage drama that could make or break the future of digital banking. Can she help the team regain their mojo and outwit their rivals, or will the competition crush their ambitions? As alliances shift and the pressure builds, one thing becomes clear: this isn't just about the product—it's about the people. 🚨 Will Angela's coaching be enough? Find out in Shift: From Product to People—the gripping story of high-stakes innovation and corporate intrigue. Buy Now on Amazon [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] About Bernie Maloney Bernie Maloney has helped teams grow businesses to beyond $4B / year, delivering products from consumer electronics to network infrastructure to services & payments. He helps clients achieve performance breakthroughs with their teams, organizations and themselves, and believes that leads both to outrageous effectiveness, and a whole lot more fun. You can link with Bernie Maloney on LinkedIn, and visit Bernie's website and YouTube Channel.

11 Sep 14min

Mastering Complexity Through Systems Thinking and NLP Coaching | Bernie Maloney

Mastering Complexity Through Systems Thinking and NLP Coaching | Bernie Maloney

Bernie Maloney: Mastering Complexity Through Systems Thinking and NLP Coaching Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Bernie addresses the constant challenge of mid-sprint changes by asking the crucial question: "what do you want to trade in for that new request?" His approach centers on recognizing that everyone is trying to do their best with what they have, using techniques from NLP and the three coaching positions to help people see the whole system. Bernie emphasizes rapport building as a key skill for Scrum Masters and warns against the anti-pattern of becoming judgmental when challenges arise. He advocates for moving from a plan-and-predict mentality to sense-and-respond thinking, highlighting the importance of conducting retrospectives once challenges are solved. Bernie's coaching philosophy revolves around helping people step into the "third position" - a dissociated perspective that enables better problem-solving and systems thinking. In this episode, we refer to Neuro-linguistic Programming (NLP), and to Instant Rapport by Michael Brooks, a primer on NLP. We also refer to the plan-and-predict vs sense-and-respond mentality. Self-reflection Question: How effectively are you helping your teams and stakeholders see the whole system when challenges arise, rather than just focusing on individual pain points? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] 🔥In the ruthless world of fintech, success isn't just about innovation—it's about coaching!🔥 Angela thought she was just there to coach a team. But now, she's caught in the middle of a corporate espionage drama that could make or break the future of digital banking. Can she help the team regain their mojo and outwit their rivals, or will the competition crush their ambitions? As alliances shift and the pressure builds, one thing becomes clear: this isn't just about the product—it's about the people. 🚨 Will Angela's coaching be enough? Find out in Shift: From Product to People—the gripping story of high-stakes innovation and corporate intrigue. Buy Now on Amazon [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] About Bernie Maloney Bernie Maloney has helped teams grow businesses to beyond $4B / year, delivering products from consumer electronics to network infrastructure to services & payments. He helps clients achieve performance breakthroughs with their teams, organizations and themselves, and believes that leads both to outrageous effectiveness, and a whole lot more fun. You can link with Bernie Maloney on LinkedIn, and visit Bernie's website and YouTube Channel.

10 Sep 18min

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