Hybrid Pricing and Pricing with AI with Steven Forth
Impact Pricing17 Apr 2023

Hybrid Pricing and Pricing with AI with Steven Forth

Steven Forth is Ibbaka's Co-Founder, CEO, and Partner. Ibbaka is a strategic pricing advisory firm. He was CEO of LeveragePoint Innovations Inc., a SaaS business designed to help companies create and capture value. Steven is what I consider one of the great pricing thinkers in our industry.

In this episode, Steven enlightens us about hybrid pricing models and explains why we should adopt it. He also shares why pricing people need to change the way they see AI along with the work they do in pricing.

Why you have to check out today's podcast:

  • Understand one of the unstated rules of pricing that talks about pricing power along with insights into future risk
  • Find out how artificial intelligence (AI) can help address concerns regarding the connection between pricing and predictability, and why pricing people should change how they see AI in line with pricing
  • Discover the reason on why most of us need to adopt hybrid pricing models and why the two pricing metrics in that should be independent of each other

"Most of us need to adopt hybrid pricing models, and the two pricing metrics should be independent of each other. If the two pricing metrics track each other closely, why bother having a hybrid pricing model? You need two metrics that are relatively independent of each other, and that will give you the flexibility you need to respond in a difficult economic environment."

– Steven Forth

Topics Covered:

00:42 – Steven's insights on what a hybrid pricing model looks like

02:30 – Issues on pricing model that applies credits/tokens to usage

04:44 – Predictability; whoever has the best insight into future risk has the greatest pricing power

09:37 – Pricing people vs. the recent trend: AI and how it sets prices

12:02 – The Achilles heel of value-based pricing, and the hybrid pricing practice in companies

18:09 – What real value-based pricing is about

20:52 – An optimal pricing model if you want to combine two metrics

24:31 – Confused buyers don't buy and renew

27:18 – Three reasons why calculators don't expose their logic

28:42 – Steven's pricing advice

29:42 – Connect with Steven

Key Takeaways:

"If you have enough data, you can actually get pretty good at predicting future usage." – Steven Forth

"One of the unstated rules of pricing is that whoever has the best insight into future risk has the greatest pricing power. The better we get at prediction, the more accurate we can get at pricing, and the question then becomes, who has the data to make those predictions? And I think in many cases, it's actually the vendor who has better access to data." – Steven Forth

"This whole question of predictability and pricing is going to be a key question for pricing over the next three to five years, and the artificial intelligences are going to help us to answer that question much better than we've ever been able to answer it before." – Steven Forth

"If you're optimizing value for the customer, you're optimizing the amount that they're willing to pay you, so if you just do it to optimize revenue, you'll end up shooting yourself in the foot because you'll trigger that negative feedback loop." – Steven Forth

Connect with Steven Forth:

Connect with Mark Stiving:

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Blogcast #60: How Much Does a Buyer Values Your Product?

Blogcast #60: How Much Does a Buyer Values Your Product?

This is an Impact Pricing Blog published on May 18, 2022, turned into an audio podcast so you can listen on the go. Read Full Article Here: https://impactpricing.com/blog/how-much-does-a-buyer-value-your-product/ If you have any feedback, definitely send it. You can reach us at mark@impactpricing.com. Now, go make an impact. Connect with Mark Stiving: Email: mark@impactpricing.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stiving/

24 Juni 20222min

Memecast #63: Gives and Gets

Memecast #63: Gives and Gets

You probably know that when we're negotiating, we do gifts and gets. We don't give anything unless we get something in return. Purchasing people are always asking us for discounts and sometimes we have to give in. We give a discount to a client or a customer. What should we get in return? Well, we should be thinking first about the things that are hard costs for us to serve our clients. For example, maybe there's a shipping cost. Maybe it's a warranty cost. But there are things that are truly that cost us money and if we can get those as clawbacks, as our gets when we give something, then we're actually giving up a lower margin. Many people call this pocket price. So, pocket price is, what's the price after I've looked at what are my costs to serve that individual customer. We hope you enjoyed this memecast. This impactful insight came from the book, Selling Value, which I wrote to help salespeople win more deals at higher prices. If you have any questions or feedback, please email me mark@impactpricing.com. Now, go make an impact. Connect with Mark Stiving: Email: mark@impactpricing.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stiving/

22 Juni 20221min

The B2B Innovator's Map: Let Customer Champions Do Selling for You with Daniel Elizalde

The B2B Innovator's Map: Let Customer Champions Do Selling for You with Daniel Elizalde

Daniel Elizalde was an IoT Product Manager Instructor at Stanford University. He used to work as the VP Head of IoT at Ericsson, but he has now narrowed his focus from IoT to climate tech firms. Daniel now helps climate tech product teams accelerate their product's time to the market. In this episode, Daniel talks about his book, The B2B Innovator's Map, as he explains why delivering value to your champion is a huge game-changer in the business world. Why you have to check out today's podcast: Discover what the book The B2B Innovator's Map is all about; Understand why you, as a vendor, should understand what value means both to your company and to your customers; and Find out why you should look for champions and not for buyers, especially when you're still starting in doing business "When you are testing a potential solution, pricing has to be one of those things that you have to prototype. You have to prototype the packaging and the offering and how you actually present it to the customer." – Daniel Elizalde Topics Covered: 01:55 – A Narrower Focus: Daniel shares the backstory on how he's decided to shift his focus from IoT to climate tech firms 04:11 – Daniel talks about the benefits of running his own consulting practice 06:18 – Helping other people, still, in the space of IoT 07:41 – Why Daniel wrote his book, The B2B Innovator's Map 09:46 – The difference between B2B and B2C in terms of the way people do innovation + the content of Daniel's book 14:35 – Relating Mark's Selling Value book to Daniel's B2B Innovator's Map 18:51 – Understanding the strongest problems that your customers have as one of the main points in the book 21:50 – Looking for a champion, not a buyer persona + the goal of innovation 28:36 – Daniel's piece of pricing advice for the listeners Key Takeaways: "For an actual advisory project where I'm involved at the strategic level, I'm going to give priority to the climate tech companies, but that doesn't mean that there are no other avenues where people can get access to some of my experience." – Daniel Elizalde "In my experience, a lot of the B2B products fail because they don't deliver value to their customers, like, customers don't see the benefit, they don't want to buy it, so they've failed. Value has to be delivered throughout, and so, therefore, value plays an immense part throughout the journey." – Daniel Elizalde "Granted, as a vendor, your own solution is not going to be the fix for the whole problem, and you're part of the whole puzzle. But as a vendor, you have to understand what are those pains, what are those problems that your customers are having, because that's where the opportunity to deliver value lies." – Daniel Elizalde "The value needs to be big for a big problem so that you can get a solution in the door." – Daniel Elizalde "It's not about the users at this point. It's about delivering value to the champion because ultimately, that's the person that's going to open the door for you." – Daniel Elizalde People / Resources Mentioned: The B2B Innovator's Map: https://danielelizalde.com/b2b-innovators-map/ Ericsson: https://www.ericsson.com/ Selling Value: https://www.amazon.com/Selling-Value-Deals-Higher-Prices/dp/1737655217/ Crossing the Chasm: https://www.amazon.com/Crossing-Chasm-3rd-Disruptive-Mainstream/dp/0062292986 Connect with Daniel Elizalde: LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielelizalde/ Website:https://danielelizalde.com/ Connect with Mark Stiving: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stiving/ Email: mark@impactpricing.com

20 Juni 202231min

Blogcast #59: Data and/or Value

Blogcast #59: Data and/or Value

This is an Impact Pricing Blog published on May 11, 2022, turned into an audio podcast so you can listen on the go. Read Full Article Here: https://impactpricing.com/blog/data-and-or-value/ If you have any feedback, definitely send it. You can reach us at mark@impactpricing.com. Now, go make an impact. Connect with Mark Stiving: Email: mark@impactpricing.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stiving/

17 Juni 20223min

Memecast #62: Business Case

Memecast #62: Business Case

If buyers are asking us for a business case, or help to write their own business case, what they're trying to do is document economic value. How much money is our product going to make or save their company? Well, this is awesome because what we want to do is help our buyers understand value. This is the exact best situation that we could possibly be in. So, what we as salespeople should be doing is understanding, how is it that our buyers get value from our products? And I can tell you it's not our features. And in fact, it's probably benefits, but it's benefits translated into, first, what's the problem we're solving for the customer? What's the expected result the customer might get? And finally, how do we turn that into dollars for that individual customer? When you've mastered this skill, and you can talk like this constantly, you will definitely win more deals at higher prices. We hope you enjoyed this memecast. This impactful insight came from the book, Selling Value, which I wrote to help salespeople win more deals at higher prices. If you have any questions or feedback, please email me mark@impactpricing.com. Now go make an impact. Connect with Mark Stiving: Email: mark@impactpricing.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stiving/

15 Juni 20221min

Rapid Needs-based Segmentation with a Pricing Twist! with Matt Johnston and Pavel Knorr

Rapid Needs-based Segmentation with a Pricing Twist! with Matt Johnston and Pavel Knorr

EPIC Conjoint's CEO Matt Johnston and CTO Pavel Knorr help companies win by enabling game changing product and pricing decisions. At EPIC Conjoint, experts combine their deep domain knowledge with innovative research platforms. With this, they enable clients to better understand their customer's preferences so they can make precise product and pricing decisions at great speed. In this episode, Mark engages in a conversation about conjoint with EPIC Conjoint leaders, Matt and Pavel. Why you have to check out today's podcast: Learn the importance of running market segmentation studies and figuring out what people's price sensitivity is to know which groups are becoming more price sensitive Find out why you should understand the challenges your target market is facing and react accordingly to that to be of help instead of going for your typical pricing mechanics Understand why you should be realistic in the way you do your design "If you're addressing the question 'what is the proper price right now?' and 'what is the proper price three months after?' you have to properly specify the price intervals for that, and you have to deal with – specifically in conjoint – you have to deal with the realistic market situation. – Pavel Knorr Topics Covered: 01:25 – The backstory of how Pavel got into pricing 02:49 – Going back to the story on how and why EPIC Conjoint came to exist 05:56 – Talking about EPIC Conjoint's project which Mark got involved with 09:56 – The global economy, recession, and its impact on people's purchase decisions 17:08 – The challenge that arises when inflation rises but incomes do not 21:40 – Making decisions in the midst of supply constraints 29:50 – What Mark loves about what Conjoint does + the beauty of Conjoint 31:59 – Pavel's piece of pricing advice for today's listeners 33:39 – Connect with Matt, Pavel, and EPIC Conjoint Key Takeaways: "When you have product development background, for you, it's actually quite important when you want to come up with the product line up, when you're doing the product optimization, because it's fine to get the product which shows the overall quite good results with the aggregated view. However, in the reality, it might end up with the case when you have build the product that platform suggested to be the best aggregate of products in the market, however, nobody really needs it because all your market is several subgroups of the niche customers." – Pavel Knorr "We believe most people make purchases based on their needs. And what we've seen in the work we've done with clients is that needs can dictate different willingness to pay under different price sensitivities." – Matt Johnston "Conjoint is the good tool to compare yourself against the competitors, but it's not performing well when it's considering buy or no buy at all. All the magic behind the conjoint is something like 50% of success, because if you collect the bad data or from wrong people, you will have nothing as the output; nothing useful for you as the output." – Pavel Knorr People / Resources Mentioned: EPIC Conjoint:https://www.epicconjoint.com/ O2:https://www.o2.co.uk/ Telefónica: https://www.telefonica.com/ URIDU: https://www.uridu.org/ BMW: https://www.bmw.com/ Hyundai: https://www.hyundai.com/worldwide/ Audi: https://www.audi.com/ Connect with Matt Johnston: Website:https://www.epicconjoint.com/ LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/matt-johnston-5a53672 Email: mattjohnston@epicconjoint.com Connect with Pavel Knorr: Website:https://www.epicconjoint.com/ LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/pavel-knorr/ Email: pavelknorr@epicconjoint.com Connect with Mark Stiving: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stiving/ Email: mark@impactpricing.com

13 Juni 202234min

Blogcast #58: Taking the Ambiguity Out of Value

Blogcast #58: Taking the Ambiguity Out of Value

This is an Impact Pricing Blog published on May 4, 2022, turned into an audio podcast so you can listen on the go. Read Full Article Here: https://impactpricing.com/blog/taking-the-ambiguity-out-of-value/ If you have any feedback, definitely send it. You can reach us at mark@impactpricing.com. Now, go make an impact. Connect with Mark Stiving: Email: mark@impactpricing.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stiving/

10 Juni 20222min

Memecast #61: Use Behavioral Economics After Value

Memecast #61: Use Behavioral Economics After Value

Behavioral economics are fun. These are those tactics, the things that we see where our buyers are behaving irrationally, and yet we know they're irrational and we can take advantage of it. In fact, my dissertation in my doctoral program was on 99 cents, and why does 99 cents work, and it's because buyers tend to be irrational. We should think of each penny or each dollar is identical, but we don't. The thing is, although these behavioral economics tactics work, and we really should be paying attention to them because we want to present our pricing in the best light possible, it's only marginally effective. We need to get the value part right. If we don't get the value part right, it doesn't matter how we use our behavioral economics. Now, to be fair, you can get the value part right and totally mess up a deal with horrible behavioral economics. So, both are important. But you absolutely have to understand value and get that right if you expect to win more deals at higher price. We hope you enjoyed this memecast. This impactful insight came from the book, Selling Value, which I wrote to help salespeople win more deals at higher prices. If you have any questions or feedback, please email me mark@impactpricing.com. Now go make an impact. Connect with Mark Stiving: Email: mark@impactpricing.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stiving/

8 Juni 20222min

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