487: Meet the Incredible Dr. David Antonuccio, Part 1 of 2

Stories from a Giant and Gadfly Discover the Protest Music of RainFall!-- like "The Antidepressant Blues!"

Today, we are delighted to spend some time with a dear friend and highly esteemed colleague, Dr. David Antonuccio. David is a retired Clinical Psychologist and Professor Emeritus in the Dept. of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences at the University of Nevada, Reno, School of Medicine.

In addition to his academic work, David had his own clinical practice for 40 years. He has published over 100 academic articles and multiple books, primarily on the treatment of depression, anxiety, or smoking cessation. Since his retirement from practice in 2020, he has been making music as part of a duo called RainFall, with his musical partner Michael Pierce. Their music can be found on Spotify, Apple music, and Soundcloud, among other streaming services.

I first became familiar with David when a colleague recommended his article entitled: "Psychotherapy versus medication for depression: challenging the conventional wisdom with data," which was published in Professional Psychology: Research and Practice way back in 1995. The article blew my socks off.

In the first place, he had come to the many of the same conclusions I had come to, that antidepressants had few "real" effects above and beyond their placebo effects. However, he also had incredible insights into some of the problems and loopholes with drug company research studies on antidepressants, so I tried to get as many colleagues and students as possible to read that article.

Here is the article link

Although I had never met David, he became my hero. One day, while I was giving one of my two-day CBT workshops in Nevada, I was singing his praises and urging participants to read that classic article, but, unexpectedly, some people started chuckling.

At a break, I asked someone why people had been laughing. They said, "Didn't you know that David Antonuccio is here attending this workshop? He was out visiting the bathroom when you were singing his praises, so he didn't hear you!"

And that's how we met!

I couldn't believe my good fortune in meeting this brilliant and humble man in person. And to my good fortune, we became good friends right off the bat and eventually did a lot of fun professional work together, like our exciting conference challenging the chemical imbalance theory of depression which we called the Rumble in Reno.

I was also proud to be included as a co-author in a popular article with David and William Danton reviewing the brilliant work of Irving Kirsch. Kirsch had re-analyzed all the data on antidepressants in the FDA archives and concluded that the chemicals called "antidepressants" had few, if any, clinically significant effects above and beyond their placebo effects. In that paper, we also emphasized the ongoing power struggle between the needs of science and the needs of marketing. Science is devoted to discovering and reporting the truth, based on research, regardless of where it leads, while marketing, sadly, is ultimately loyal to the bottom line, even if deception is required.

Here is the link to our article:

And here is the full reference:

Antonuccio, D. O., Burns, D., & Danton, W. G. (2002). Antidepressants: A Triumph of Marketing over Science? Prevention and Treatment, 5, Article 25. Web link: http://journals.apa.org/prevention/volume5/toc-jul15-02.htm

I was sad when David retired from his clinical, teaching, and research career a number of years ago in order to spend more time on creating and recording music because, a passion he'd put on the shelf during the most active years of his career. I felt we'd lost an important and courageous leader in the behavioral sciences, and felt an emptiness, like an important pioneer was suddenly missing.

The following link provides a highly readable brief overview of

David's career focus and interests.

I was thrilled to learn just recently that David has partly resumed his role as gadfly of the behavioral sciences, rejoining the fight for science, ethics and for truth, regardless of where that leads or whose feathers are ruffled.

And now, we sit down together to reminisce about his personal life and experiences with many of the greats in our field, like Dr. David Healey, Irving Kirsch, and others who have also stood up for the truth, based on their research, in spite of intense opposition from the establishment.

And, today David also brings us his music, with his colleague, Michael Pierce, RainFall.

Some of his music has psychiatric / psychological themes, like his "Antidepressant Blues,"

Some of David's music has humanistic and political themes. He said:

Here's a song we just released yesterday that i will assume would not be relevant to the podcast. It is called Final Embrace and was inspired by a heart-breaking international wire photo of a Salvadoran immigrant father hugging his daughter, both deceased, in the rio grande in 2019.

Here's the link to the original news story.

David's two-man group, RainFall, wrote and recorded the original acoustic version of this song in 2020. He explains:

We decided to record a more dynamic updated version of the song with some electric guitar chords, electric bass, and drums. We are calling it "Final Embrace Electric". The story is still heart-breaking, and it still makes me cry to sing it.

Here is a link to the new version of the song,

And here are the heart-breaking lyrics:

Final Embrace Electric (For Oscar and Valeria)

By RainFall (David Antonuccio and Michael Pierce)

I'm sorry I couldn't help you

I'm sorry you lost your life

You took a deadly risk

I'm sorry for your wife

What were you supposed to do?

Stay home and watch your family die?

Or take a chance at freedom

Reach for the sky

Some say you should have known better

They say that you are a criminal

But they don't know your fear, your pain, your hunger

For them it's the principle

Some say we were here first

It's not our problem

Despite your dire thirst

We're full, no more asylum

Let's ask them what they would do

If their family were faced with danger

If they're honest, they'd take the chance

Hope for kindness from a stranger

You tried to get in the front door

But it was slammed closed

So you swam the deadly current

Despite the perilous flow

You never lost your grip

Though the river was not crossable

Only another parent can know

How that is even possible

Everyone can tell you loved your daughter

Even in that place

You never let her go

It was your final embrace

I'm sorry I couldn't help you

I'm sorry you lost your life

You took a deadly risk

I'm so sorry for your wife

Everyone can tell you loved your daughter

Even in that place

You never let her go

It was your final embrace

Your final embrace

It was your final embrace

It was your final embrace

Thank you for joining us today. Stayed tuned for Part 2 of the David Antonuccio interview next week!

David, Rhonda, and David