CTO Series: Mastering the CTPO Role, Katrina Clokie’s Guide to Tech and Product Leadership

CTO Series: Mastering the CTPO Role, Katrina Clokie’s Guide to Tech and Product Leadership

CTO Series: Mastering the CTPO Role, Katrina Clokie’s Guide to Tech and Product Leadership

In this BONUS episode, we sit down with Katrina Clokie, a seasoned leader in strategy, change management, and building inclusive teams. Katrina shares pivotal moments in her career, offers practical leadership insights, and discusses her role as Chief Technology and Product Officer (CTPO), where she’s balancing innovation with business objectives. Whether you’re an aspiring tech leader or looking to sharpen your leadership toolkit, Katrina’s wisdom will inspire you to embrace growth, resilience, and collaboration.

Defining Moments in Leadership

“Look for roles you can’t fully do yet—it’s the best way to grow.”

Katrina reflects on a transformative moment early in her career when a mentor from the shipping industry encouraged her to seek out challenging roles that would push her growth. This advice set her on the path to engineering management and C-level leadership. She shares how fostering curiosity and pursuing conversations about topics she didn’t yet fully understand has kept her continually learning.

“Ask yourself: where do I feel stretched? That’s often where the best growth opportunities lie.”

The Role of CTPO: Combining Technology and Product Strategy

“We needed both a unified vision and an efficient structure to remain competitive.”

Katrina discusses why her company created the CTPO role and how it reflects the size and growth stage of the organization. With no prior head of product, Katrina leaned into her experience while recognizing the importance of partnering with skilled product managers. She emphasizes the importance of having clear accountabilities and embracing growth within the role.

“The key is knowing when to lead and when to lean on your team’s expertise.”

Aligning Tech Strategy with Business Objectives

“Trade-offs are inevitable—make them strategically, not reactively.”

At Fergus, Katrina implemented clear guardrails, such as avoiding a complete rewrite of their decade-old monolith, focusing instead on retiring components that hindered stability and developer experience. She shares how they allocate 60% of engineering capacity to strategic initiatives and 40% to ongoing business needs, ensuring tech and business priorities stay aligned.

“Guardrails help teams make decisions that align with the big picture without constant oversight.”

Fostering Cross-Functional Collaboration

“Healthy conflict is necessary—escalation usually signals a breakdown in structure.”

Katrina describes how she structured cross-functional teams with clear goals and metrics to foster collaboration and ensure diverse perspectives are represented. She highlights the importance of empathy and role-modeling constructive conflict resolution at senior levels.

“A well-designed structure turns potential conflict into productive problem-solving.”

Roadmapping with Flexibility and Focus

“Roadmaps should guide—not handcuff—teams to long-term commitments.”

Katrina’s approach to roadmapping balances transparency and adaptability. By reserving only 60% of capacity for roadmap initiatives and keeping annual plans intentionally light, her teams can pivot when necessary without overcommitting. Frequent, smaller releases (up to 160 changes per month) help deliver value continuously.

“Leave room in your roadmap to handle surprises without derailing progress.”

Scaling Teams During Rapid Growth

“Avoid constant recruiting—it can burn out your leaders and upset team dynamics.”

Drawing from her experience at Xero, Katrina advises against an “always-on” recruitment strategy, which can overwhelm hiring managers and disrupt team cohesion. Instead, she recommends batch hiring and partnering with finance and talent teams to manage hiring budgets in stages.

“Hiring in waves allows teams to stabilize and thrive, rather than constantly adjusting.”

Overcoming the Challenges of Growth and Constraints

“Shifting from hyper-growth to steady growth meant saying ‘no’ more often and being precise.”

Katrina shares how transitioning from an environment of rapid scaling to a more constrained SaaS company required a shift in her approach to decision-making. She focused on making the business context clear to her team, fostering trust and transparency in her decision-making process.

“When people understand the ‘why’ behind constraints, they’re more likely to trust the process.”

Recommended Reads for Tech Leaders

Katrina shares the books that have shaped her leadership journey:

“Great leadership isn’t innate—it’s learned through mentorship, reflection, and resources.”

Scaling Your Influence as a Leader

From her experience at global companies to her current role, Katrina’s insights on transparency, collaboration, and strategic trade-offs provide a blueprint for navigating the complexities of tech leadership.

“Leadership isn’t about having all the answers—it’s about empowering your team and staying open to learning.”

About Katrina Clokie

Katrina Clokie is a respected leader in strategy, change management, and building inclusive teams. A keynote speaker at international conferences, she is passionate about leadership and communication. Her book, A Practical Guide to Testing in DevOps, has reached over 7,000 readers. In 2018, she was a finalist for New Zealand’s Inspiring Individual of the Year Award.

You can link with Katrina Clokie on LinkedIn.

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Balancing Delivery Pressure with Agile Transformation | Antti Horelli

Balancing Delivery Pressure with Agile Transformation | Antti Horelli

Antti Horelli: Balancing Delivery Pressure with Agile Transformation Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Antti shares his experience leading an agile transformation across three siloed organizations: development, QA/testing, and support. The transformation involved establishing cross-functional teams and implementing visual management through a comprehensive planning wall. Despite initial progress with joint planning days and rolling wave planning, the pressure to deliver led to reverting to traditional project management approaches. This story highlights the challenge of maintaining agile principles while under delivery pressure and the importance of focusing on reliable delivery rather than agile for agile's sake. Self-reflection Question: How do you balance the need for immediate results with long-term agile transformation goals? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] 🔥In the ruthless world of fintech, success isn’t just about innovation—it’s about coaching!🔥 Angela thought she was just there to coach a team. But now, she’s caught in the middle of a corporate espionage drama that could make or break the future of digital banking. Can she help the team regain their mojo and outwit their rivals, or will the competition crush their ambitions? As alliances shift and the pressure builds, one thing becomes clear: this isn’t just about the product—it’s about the people. 🚨 Will Angela’s coaching be enough? Find out in Shift: From Product to People—the gripping story of high-stakes innovation and corporate intrigue. Buy Now on Amazon [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] About Antti Horelli  Antti is an experienced Agile Coach from Finland, dedicated to empowering teams. With a systems-oriented, empathetic approach, he fosters collaboration and effective communication. With decades in IT, Antti transitioned from technical roles to methodology, where he passionately helps people and teams reach their full potential. You can link with Antti Horelli on LinkedIn.

29 Jan 15min

The Challenge of Breaking Silos, And Building Collaborative Teams Remotely | Antti Horelli

The Challenge of Breaking Silos, And Building Collaborative Teams Remotely | Antti Horelli

Antti Horelli: The Challenge of Breaking Silos, And Building Collaborative Agile Teams Remotely Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Antti shares a story about a team of solo workers who struggled to collaborate effectively. Despite having technical expertise, the team faced challenges in delivering value due to conflicting views on "good tech work" and communication issues. The remote working environment further complicated their interactions, ultimately leading to the team's dissolution. This experience emphasizes the importance of focusing on team cohesion and establishing clear ways of working, especially in distributed teams. Featured Book of the Week: "Lean, Resolving the efficiency paradox" Antti recommends "This is Lean: Resolving the Efficiency Paradox” by Modig et al., an approachable book for its clear explanation of flow efficiency versus resource efficiency in Scrum and Kanban. The book helped him understand the counterintuitive benefits of optimizing for one-piece flow and completing single value-delivering items, offering valuable insights for process improvement. Self-reflection Question: How can you help your team transition from individual work patterns to effective collaboration? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] 🔥In the ruthless world of fintech, success isn’t just about innovation—it’s about coaching!🔥 Angela thought she was just there to coach a team. But now, she’s caught in the middle of a corporate espionage drama that could make or break the future of digital banking. Can she help the team regain their mojo and outwit their rivals, or will the competition crush their ambitions? As alliances shift and the pressure builds, one thing becomes clear: this isn’t just about the product—it’s about the people. 🚨 Will Angela’s coaching be enough? Find out in Shift: From Product to People—the gripping story of high-stakes innovation and corporate intrigue. Buy Now on Amazon [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] About Antti Horelli  Antti is an experienced Agile Coach from Finland, dedicated to empowering teams. With a systems-oriented, empathetic approach, he fosters collaboration and effective communication. With decades in IT, Antti transitioned from technical roles to methodology, where he passionately helps people and teams reach their full potential. You can link with Antti Horelli on LinkedIn.

28 Jan 14min

The Three-Day Sprint Planning Nightmare - Learning from Failure | Antti Horelli

The Three-Day Sprint Planning Nightmare - Learning from Failure | Antti Horelli

Antti Horelli: The Three-Day Sprint Planning Nightmare - Learning from Agile Failure Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. In this episode, Antti shares a critical learning moment from his early Scrum Master days when a sprint planning session extended to three days due to poor preparation. The team discovered that backlog items were much larger and different than expected, while unexpected background decisions further complicated the planning. This experience highlighted the vital importance of proper refinement work and maintaining clear communication channels about decisions affecting the team. Self-reflection Question: How do you ensure your team has sufficient context about upcoming decisions while avoiding information overload? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] 🔥In the ruthless world of fintech, success isn’t just about innovation—it’s about coaching!🔥 Angela thought she was just there to coach a team. But now, she’s caught in the middle of a corporate espionage drama that could make or break the future of digital banking. Can she help the team regain their mojo and outwit their rivals, or will the competition crush their ambitions? As alliances shift and the pressure builds, one thing becomes clear: this isn’t just about the product—it’s about the people. 🚨 Will Angela’s coaching be enough? Find out in Shift: From Product to People—the gripping story of high-stakes innovation and corporate intrigue. Buy Now on Amazon [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] About Antti Horelli  Antti is an experienced Agile Coach from Finland, dedicated to empowering teams. With a systems-oriented, empathetic approach, he fosters collaboration and effective communication. With decades in IT, Antti transitioned from technical roles to methodology, where he passionately helps people and teams reach their full potential. You can link with Antti Horelli on LinkedIn.

27 Jan 14min

BONUS: Gojko Adzic on Optimizing Products for Long-Tail Users (Agile Online Summit 2024 Replay)

BONUS: Gojko Adzic on Optimizing Products for Long-Tail Users (Agile Online Summit 2024 Replay)

BONUS: Gojko Adzic on Optimizing Products for Long-Tail Users (Agile Online Summit 2024 Replay) In this BONUS episode, we revisit Gojko Adzic’s insightful interview at the Agile Online Summit 2024. Gojko, an award-winning author and software expert, unpacks the principles behind his latest book, Lizard Optimization, offering a fresh perspective on improving product usability by addressing the needs of long-tail users. From learning from unexpected user behaviors to refining products with a systematic approach, this episode is filled with practical tips for product teams and Agile practitioners. What is Lizard Optimization? Drawing from his experiences as a product developer, Gojko introduces the idea of Lizard Optimization. He discusses how observing unexpected user behaviors led him to refine his SaaS tools like Narakeet and MindMup. By focusing on usability challenges and unusual patterns, he has turned serendipity into actionable insights. “Users aren’t stupid—they’re just finding creative ways to get value from your product. Listen to them.” Gojko explains the inspiration behind the metaphor of the “Lizardman constant,” a concept from a Scott Alexander blog post. He describes how this principle applies to product optimization: understanding and addressing the 4% of surprising, unexplainable behaviors can uncover opportunities for innovation. “The job isn’t to judge users—it’s to explore why they’re doing what they’re doing and how we can help them succeed.” The High-Level Process of Lizard Optimization Gojko outlines the systematic process described in his book to leverage unexpected user behavior: Observe Misuse: Identify how users deviate from expected patterns. Extract Insights: Focus on one unexpected behavior as a signal. Remove Obstacles: Help users achieve their goals more easily. Monitor Impacts: Detect and adjust for unintended consequences. “Start monitoring for the predictable but unexpected—those hidden gems can unlock your next big feature.” Practical Advice for Product Teams For teams ready to apply these concepts, Gojko emphasizes the importance of expanding observability tools to include product metrics and not just technical ones. He shares how tracking unpredictable user actions can inspire impactful changes. “About a third of what we do delivers value—focus on finding where unexpected value lies.” Recommended Resources To dive deeper into these ideas, Gojko recommends: Trustworthy Online Controlled Experiments by Ron Kohavi Evidence Guided by Tim Herbig LizardOptimization.org “Experimentation and evidence-based decision-making are the keys to building better products.” Closing Thoughts: “Look for the Unexpected” Gojko’s parting advice for Agile practitioners is simple yet powerful: Look for the unexpected. By embracing surprises in user behavior, teams can transform minor inconveniences into major opportunities for growth. “The unexpected is where innovation begins.” About Gojko Adzic Gojko Adzic is an award-winning author, speaker, and product creator. His books, including Lizard Optimization, Impact Mapping, and Specification by Example, have become essential reads for Agile practitioners and product teams worldwide. Gojko is a 2019 AWS Serverless Hero, the winner of the 2016 European Software Testing Outstanding Achievement Award, and the 2011 Most Influential Agile Testing Professional Award. He has also co-founded several successful SaaS tools, including Narakeet, MindMup, and Votito. You can link with Gojko Adzic on LinkedIn.

25 Jan 40min

Overcoming the Part-Time Product Owner Trap | Ville Reijonen

Overcoming the Part-Time Product Owner Trap | Ville Reijonen

Ville Reijonen: Overcoming the Part-Time Product Owner Trap The Bad Product Owner: The Part-Time PO Disaster Ville describes a scenario where a company assigned a part-time Product Owner (PO) to manage software development. The PO’s inconsistent availability led to poor communication and a lack of feedback loops. Ville explains how this anti-pattern can derail a project and shares tips, such as scheduling regular meetings to ensure that the PO remains actively involved in supporting the team. A strong PO presence is crucial for maintaining alignment and driving product success, and Ville discusses some possible mitigating actions we can take to make sure that even part-time PO’s are available for the team. Reflection Question: How can you support a Product Owner who struggles with availability to ensure your team gets the guidance they need? The Great Product Owner: The Master Communicator In contrast, Ville shares an example of an exceptional PO who excelled at communication and collaboration. This PO consistently collected and shared feedback, held regular one-on-one meetings, and fostered a culture of transparency and understanding. Ville emphasizes that a great PO proactively builds relationships and maintains a consistent cadence of interactions to stay informed and guide the team effectively. Self-reflection Question: How can you support your PO so that they learn to communicate and engage with the team better?  [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] 🔥In the ruthless world of fintech, success isn’t just about innovation—it’s about coaching!🔥 Angela thought she was just there to coach a team. But now, she’s caught in the middle of a corporate espionage drama that could make or break the future of digital banking. Can she help the team regain their mojo and outwit their rivals, or will the competition crush their ambitions? As alliances shift and the pressure builds, one thing becomes clear: this isn’t just about the product—it’s about the people. 🚨 Will Angela’s coaching be enough? Find out in Shift: From Product to People—the gripping story of high-stakes innovation and corporate intrigue. Buy Now on Amazon [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] About Ville Reijonen Ville is a seasoned Agilist and pattern enthusiast. He has co-authored two books—one on distributed machine control system patterns and another on Scrum patterns. Ville is passionate about discovering patterns in various contexts and currently works as a freelance coach, empowering individuals and teams by fostering focus and understanding. You can link with Ville Reijonen on LinkedIn.

24 Jan 15min

How To Use Agile Retrospectives To Help Teams Focus On Continuous Growth | Ville Reijonen

How To Use Agile Retrospectives To Help Teams Focus On Continuous Growth | Ville Reijonen

Ville Reijonen: How To Use Agile Retrospectives To Help Teams Focus On Continuous Growth For Ville, true success as a Scrum Master is achieved when the team and the PO can independently manage their development process. He shares how he tracks team progress, conducts one-on-ones to provide tailored support, and uses subtle nudges to guide the team toward autonomy. Ville emphasizes the importance of understanding where individuals are in their learning journey and helping them achieve their goals by continuously assessing and adjusting support strategies. Self-reflection Question: What steps can you take to help your team become more self-sufficient? Featured Retrospective Format for the Week: Spider Web Games Ville highlights the use of spider web graphs (aka radar graphs) as a way for teams to reflect on their progress in different areas. This format creates a visual representation of strengths and areas for improvement. Ville explains how role-playing and simulation games can foster team cohesion and help teams identify behaviors that can be applied to their daily work. By engaging in playful yet insightful activities, teams can foster collaboration and enhance retrospectives. [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] 🔥In the ruthless world of fintech, success isn’t just about innovation—it’s about coaching!🔥 Angela thought she was just there to coach a team. But now, she’s caught in the middle of a corporate espionage drama that could make or break the future of digital banking. Can she help the team regain their mojo and outwit their rivals, or will the competition crush their ambitions? As alliances shift and the pressure builds, one thing becomes clear: this isn’t just about the product—it’s about the people. 🚨 Will Angela’s coaching be enough? Find out in Shift: From Product to People—the gripping story of high-stakes innovation and corporate intrigue. Buy Now on Amazon [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] About Ville Reijonen Ville is a seasoned Agilist and pattern enthusiast. He has co-authored two books—one on distributed machine control system patterns and another on Scrum patterns. Ville is passionate about discovering patterns in various contexts and currently works as a freelance coach, empowering individuals and teams by fostering focus and understanding. You can link with Ville Reijonen on LinkedIn.

23 Jan 16min

Why Organizational And Scrum Patterns Are Essential for Leading Change | Ville Reijonen

Why Organizational And Scrum Patterns Are Essential for Leading Change | Ville Reijonen

Ville Reijonen: Why Organizational And Scrum Patterns Are Essential for Leading Change Read the full Show Notes and search through the world’s largest audio library on Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Ville shares how patterns provide a structured approach to implementing change in organizations. During informal chats with colleagues before the pandemic, Ville would share useful patterns to build common understanding. He explains how patterns create a shared language that helps teams internalize concepts like Scrum roles and processes. Ville recommends ScrumBook.org as a resource for sharing patterns and insights with colleagues. By using patterns, Scrum Masters can foster more effective change processes and create a cohesive vision for their teams. Self-reflection Question: How do you use patterns to enhance your team’s approach to change? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] 🔥In the ruthless world of fintech, success isn’t just about innovation—it’s about coaching!🔥 Angela thought she was just there to coach a team. But now, she’s caught in the middle of a corporate espionage drama that could make or break the future of digital banking. Can she help the team regain their mojo and outwit their rivals, or will the competition crush their ambitions? As alliances shift and the pressure builds, one thing becomes clear: this isn’t just about the product—it’s about the people. 🚨 Will Angela’s coaching be enough? Find out in Shift: From Product to People—the gripping story of high-stakes innovation and corporate intrigue. Buy Now on Amazon [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] About Ville Reijonen Ville is a seasoned Agilist and pattern enthusiast. He has co-authored two books—one on distributed machine control system patterns and another on Scrum patterns. Ville is passionate about discovering patterns in various contexts and currently works as a freelance coach, empowering individuals and teams by fostering focus and understanding. You can link with Ville Reijonen on LinkedIn.

22 Jan 15min

Overcoming Code Ownership Silos in Agile Teams | Ville Reijonen

Overcoming Code Ownership Silos in Agile Teams | Ville Reijonen

Ville Reijonen: Overcoming Code Ownership Silos in Agile Teams Ville describes a team that had divided code ownership, where members were reluctant to share or modify each other’s work. This fostered fear, mistrust, and a defensive approach to development. Ville explains how this pattern of component segregation led to silos and distrust. He outlines actionable steps for rebuilding trust, such as adopting robust testing practices, implementing an internal open-source model, and encouraging ensemble programming. By fostering a culture of shared ownership, teams can collaborate more effectively and develop higher-quality software. Self-reflection Question: How can testing and collaboration frameworks help build trust within your team? Featured Book of the Week: “Innovation and Entrepreneurship” by Peter Drucker Ville recommends Peter Drucker’s Innovation and Entrepreneurship, a timeless classic that provides a comprehensive understanding of the purpose of business—creating and retaining customers. Ville shares how this book, which he encountered during a case-study-based innovation course, shaped his approach to thinking about innovation in the big picture. He emphasizes how important it is for Scrum Masters to view their work through a broader lens to support product and customer success. [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] 🔥In the ruthless world of fintech, success isn’t just about innovation—it’s about coaching!🔥 Angela thought she was just there to coach a team. But now, she’s caught in the middle of a corporate espionage drama that could make or break the future of digital banking. Can she help the team regain their mojo and outwit their rivals, or will the competition crush their ambitions? As alliances shift and the pressure builds, one thing becomes clear: this isn’t just about the product—it’s about the people. 🚨 Will Angela’s coaching be enough? Find out in Shift: From Product to People—the gripping story of high-stakes innovation and corporate intrigue. Buy Now on Amazon [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] About Ville Reijonen Ville is a seasoned Agilist and pattern enthusiast. He has co-authored two books—one on distributed machine control system patterns and another on Scrum patterns. Ville is passionate about discovering patterns in various contexts and currently works as a freelance coach, empowering individuals and teams by fostering focus and understanding. You can link with Ville Reijonen on LinkedIn.

21 Jan 17min

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