CTO Series: Mastering the CTPO Role, Katrina Clokie’s Guide to Tech and Product Leadership

CTO Series: Mastering the CTPO Role, Katrina Clokie’s Guide to Tech and Product Leadership

CTO Series: Mastering the CTPO Role, Katrina Clokie’s Guide to Tech and Product Leadership

In this BONUS episode, we sit down with Katrina Clokie, a seasoned leader in strategy, change management, and building inclusive teams. Katrina shares pivotal moments in her career, offers practical leadership insights, and discusses her role as Chief Technology and Product Officer (CTPO), where she’s balancing innovation with business objectives. Whether you’re an aspiring tech leader or looking to sharpen your leadership toolkit, Katrina’s wisdom will inspire you to embrace growth, resilience, and collaboration.

Defining Moments in Leadership

“Look for roles you can’t fully do yet—it’s the best way to grow.”

Katrina reflects on a transformative moment early in her career when a mentor from the shipping industry encouraged her to seek out challenging roles that would push her growth. This advice set her on the path to engineering management and C-level leadership. She shares how fostering curiosity and pursuing conversations about topics she didn’t yet fully understand has kept her continually learning.

“Ask yourself: where do I feel stretched? That’s often where the best growth opportunities lie.”

The Role of CTPO: Combining Technology and Product Strategy

“We needed both a unified vision and an efficient structure to remain competitive.”

Katrina discusses why her company created the CTPO role and how it reflects the size and growth stage of the organization. With no prior head of product, Katrina leaned into her experience while recognizing the importance of partnering with skilled product managers. She emphasizes the importance of having clear accountabilities and embracing growth within the role.

“The key is knowing when to lead and when to lean on your team’s expertise.”

Aligning Tech Strategy with Business Objectives

“Trade-offs are inevitable—make them strategically, not reactively.”

At Fergus, Katrina implemented clear guardrails, such as avoiding a complete rewrite of their decade-old monolith, focusing instead on retiring components that hindered stability and developer experience. She shares how they allocate 60% of engineering capacity to strategic initiatives and 40% to ongoing business needs, ensuring tech and business priorities stay aligned.

“Guardrails help teams make decisions that align with the big picture without constant oversight.”

Fostering Cross-Functional Collaboration

“Healthy conflict is necessary—escalation usually signals a breakdown in structure.”

Katrina describes how she structured cross-functional teams with clear goals and metrics to foster collaboration and ensure diverse perspectives are represented. She highlights the importance of empathy and role-modeling constructive conflict resolution at senior levels.

“A well-designed structure turns potential conflict into productive problem-solving.”

Roadmapping with Flexibility and Focus

“Roadmaps should guide—not handcuff—teams to long-term commitments.”

Katrina’s approach to roadmapping balances transparency and adaptability. By reserving only 60% of capacity for roadmap initiatives and keeping annual plans intentionally light, her teams can pivot when necessary without overcommitting. Frequent, smaller releases (up to 160 changes per month) help deliver value continuously.

“Leave room in your roadmap to handle surprises without derailing progress.”

Scaling Teams During Rapid Growth

“Avoid constant recruiting—it can burn out your leaders and upset team dynamics.”

Drawing from her experience at Xero, Katrina advises against an “always-on” recruitment strategy, which can overwhelm hiring managers and disrupt team cohesion. Instead, she recommends batch hiring and partnering with finance and talent teams to manage hiring budgets in stages.

“Hiring in waves allows teams to stabilize and thrive, rather than constantly adjusting.”

Overcoming the Challenges of Growth and Constraints

“Shifting from hyper-growth to steady growth meant saying ‘no’ more often and being precise.”

Katrina shares how transitioning from an environment of rapid scaling to a more constrained SaaS company required a shift in her approach to decision-making. She focused on making the business context clear to her team, fostering trust and transparency in her decision-making process.

“When people understand the ‘why’ behind constraints, they’re more likely to trust the process.”

Recommended Reads for Tech Leaders

Katrina shares the books that have shaped her leadership journey:

“Great leadership isn’t innate—it’s learned through mentorship, reflection, and resources.”

Scaling Your Influence as a Leader

From her experience at global companies to her current role, Katrina’s insights on transparency, collaboration, and strategic trade-offs provide a blueprint for navigating the complexities of tech leadership.

“Leadership isn’t about having all the answers—it’s about empowering your team and staying open to learning.”

About Katrina Clokie

Katrina Clokie is a respected leader in strategy, change management, and building inclusive teams. A keynote speaker at international conferences, she is passionate about leadership and communication. Her book, A Practical Guide to Testing in DevOps, has reached over 7,000 readers. In 2018, she was a finalist for New Zealand’s Inspiring Individual of the Year Award.

You can link with Katrina Clokie on LinkedIn.

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Building Self-Sufficient Teams Through Emotional Intelligence | Lilia Pulova

Building Self-Sufficient Teams Through Emotional Intelligence | Lilia Pulova

Lilia Pulova: Building Self-Sufficient Teams Through Emotional Intelligence Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Lilia defines success for Scrum Masters by asking a simple but powerful question: "Do people feel supported?" Her approach focuses on training teams to take on her responsibilities and make their own decisions. Rather than dictating solutions, she presents options and allows teams to choose their path. Over time, teams learn these options and develop independence in decision-making.  She maintains awareness by monitoring delivery metrics, watching for tickets that take too long, and staying attentive during daily stand-ups. With her primarily remote team keeping cameras open, Lilia reads emotions and body language to identify potential issues early, preventing small conflicts from escalating into major problems. Self-reflection Question: How well do you read the emotional state of your team members, and what early warning signs might you be overlooking? Featured Retrospective Format for the Week: 1-on-1 Retrospective Lilia advocates for the 1-on-1 retrospective as her most effective format, explaining that people open up more in private conversations than in group settings. While group retrospectives can work well with smooth conversation flow, she finds that structured formats don't always suit every team - sometimes the "lack of format" creates better outcomes. The key to successful 1-on-1 retrospectives is building strong relationships and establishing trust, which she considers the most important foundation for effective retrospectives. [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] 🔥In the ruthless world of fintech, success isn’t just about innovation—it’s about coaching!🔥 Angela thought she was just there to coach a team. But now, she’s caught in the middle of a corporate espionage drama that could make or break the future of digital banking. Can she help the team regain their mojo and outwit their rivals, or will the competition crush their ambitions? As alliances shift and the pressure builds, one thing becomes clear: this isn’t just about the product—it’s about the people. 🚨 Will Angela’s coaching be enough? Find out in Shift: From Product to People—the gripping story of high-stakes innovation and corporate intrigue. Buy Now on Amazon [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] About Lilia Pulova  Lilia Pulova, a former Business Intelligence Analyst, discovered her passion as a Scrum Master by chance. A natural communicator with a love for languages, she now bridges the gap between business and tech, translating complex needs into streamlined processes that boost productivity and keep teams aligned and focused. You can link with Lilia Pulova on LinkedIn.

26 Juni 13min

Leading Transformation: Leading an Agile Transformation—The Power of Patience and Small Winss | Lilia Pulova

Leading Transformation: Leading an Agile Transformation—The Power of Patience and Small Winss | Lilia Pulova

Lilia Pulova: Leading an Agile Transformation—The Power of Patience and Small Wins Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Lilia shares her experience leading a genuine Agile transformation in an organization just beginning their journey. Faced with widespread skepticism and resistance, she encountered impatient stakeholders demanding immediate results during the challenging first 2-3 months. The breakthrough came after two months when stakeholders finally witnessed tangible improvements in the application and faster release cycles. Patience emerged as the critical skill that carried the transformation through its most difficult phase. Lilia emphasizes the importance of conducting numerous one-on-one conversations and consistently praising teams while celebrating small wins to maintain motivation throughout the change process. Self-reflection Question: How do you maintain team morale and stakeholder confidence during the uncertain early phases of organizational change? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] 🔥In the ruthless world of fintech, success isn’t just about innovation—it’s about coaching!🔥 Angela thought she was just there to coach a team. But now, she’s caught in the middle of a corporate espionage drama that could make or break the future of digital banking. Can she help the team regain their mojo and outwit their rivals, or will the competition crush their ambitions? As alliances shift and the pressure builds, one thing becomes clear: this isn’t just about the product—it’s about the people. 🚨 Will Angela’s coaching be enough? Find out in Shift: From Product to People—the gripping story of high-stakes innovation and corporate intrigue. Buy Now on Amazon [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] About Lilia Pulova  Lilia Pulova, a former Business Intelligence Analyst, discovered her passion as a Scrum Master by chance. A natural communicator with a love for languages, she now bridges the gap between business and tech, translating complex needs into streamlined processes that boost productivity and keep teams aligned and focused. You can link with Lilia Pulova on LinkedIn.

25 Juni 11min

Leadership Red Flag—When Managers Care More About Career Than Team Success | Lilia Pulova

Leadership Red Flag—When Managers Care More About Career Than Team Success | Lilia Pulova

Lilia Pulova: Leadership Red Flag—When Managers Care More About Career Than Team Success Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Lilia shares the story of when she worked with a troubled team where all projects were running late. As a junior Scrum Master, she struggled to identify that the root cause was a manager more focused on career advancement than team success. This manager only paid attention to team members who could provide exposure to higher management, dismissing other requests with "let's solve that later." Integration problems mounted, key people were absent, and when COVID arrived, the team was ultimately disbanded. This experience taught Lilia crucial lessons about taking ownership of team success and viewing the Scrum Master role as a continuous learning journey in leadership. Self-reflection Question: How well do you understand the human dynamics within your team, and what signals might you be missing about individual motivations? Featured Book of the Week: 48 Laws of Power by Robert Greene Lilia recommends "48 Laws of Power" by Robert Greene for its insights into human behavior and understanding the consequences of our actions when working with others. As Scrum Masters who interact with humans daily, this book helps develop awareness of interpersonal dynamics. One key principle Lilia applies is "always say less than necessary" - helping teams make decisions rather than overwhelming them with too much information or direction. [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] 🔥In the ruthless world of fintech, success isn’t just about innovation—it’s about coaching!🔥 Angela thought she was just there to coach a team. But now, she’s caught in the middle of a corporate espionage drama that could make or break the future of digital banking. Can she help the team regain their mojo and outwit their rivals, or will the competition crush their ambitions? As alliances shift and the pressure builds, one thing becomes clear: this isn’t just about the product—it’s about the people. 🚨 Will Angela’s coaching be enough? Find out in Shift: From Product to People—the gripping story of high-stakes innovation and corporate intrigue. Buy Now on Amazon [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] About Lilia Pulova  Lilia Pulova, a former Business Intelligence Analyst, discovered her passion as a Scrum Master by chance. A natural communicator with a love for languages, she now bridges the gap between business and tech, translating complex needs into streamlined processes that boost productivity and keep teams aligned and focused. You can link with Lilia Pulova on LinkedIn.

24 Juni 14min

When Architects Push Solutions—Learning to Disagree but Commit in Agile Teams | Lilia Pulova

When Architects Push Solutions—Learning to Disagree but Commit in Agile Teams | Lilia Pulova

Lilia Pulova: When Architects Push Solutions—Learning to Disagree but Commit in Agile Teams Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Lilia shares a challenging situation where an architect pushed a complex solution that she felt might be too difficult for her less-experienced team. Despite having two alternative solutions that better suited the team's capabilities, she chose to let go of her concerns and try the architect's approach. This decision required significant adaptation and ongoing conversations with her frustrated team members. By informing her manager about the team's frustration level and working closely with the team to adapt the solution to their context, Lilia demonstrates the valuable principle of "disagree but commit" - sometimes you need to let go of your preferred approach and learn from trying something different. Self-reflection Question: When have you had to set aside your preferred solution to support a team decision, and what did you learn from that experience? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] 🔥In the ruthless world of fintech, success isn’t just about innovation—it’s about coaching!🔥 Angela thought she was just there to coach a team. But now, she’s caught in the middle of a corporate espionage drama that could make or break the future of digital banking. Can she help the team regain their mojo and outwit their rivals, or will the competition crush their ambitions? As alliances shift and the pressure builds, one thing becomes clear: this isn’t just about the product—it’s about the people. 🚨 Will Angela’s coaching be enough? Find out in Shift: From Product to People—the gripping story of high-stakes innovation and corporate intrigue. Buy Now on Amazon [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] About Lilia Pulova  Lilia Pulova, a former Business Intelligence Analyst, discovered her passion as a Scrum Master by chance. A natural communicator with a love for languages, she now bridges the gap between business and tech, translating complex needs into streamlined processes that boost productivity and keep teams aligned and focused. You can link with Lilia Pulova on LinkedIn.

23 Juni 13min

BONUS: Never Stop Experimenting—Building a Culture of Continuous Discovery | Stavros Stavru

BONUS: Never Stop Experimenting—Building a Culture of Continuous Discovery | Stavros Stavru

BONUS: Never Stop Experimenting—Building a Culture of Continuous Discovery with Stavros Stavru In this BONUS episode, we dive deep into the world of continuous experimentation with Stavros Stavru, Ph.D. in Organizational Transformations and founder of EdTech ventures AhaPlay and The Caringers. Stavros shares insights from his latest book "Never Stop Experimenting" and reveals how teams can maintain their discovery mindset while balancing the pressures of delivery. The Exploration-Exploitation Dilemma "What would we choose? What we know, and try to exploit? Or go for something new, and better than we currently have?" Stavros introduces us to one of the fundamental challenges facing modern teams: the tension between exploration and exploitation. He explains how teams often start with an exploration mindset, focused on solving real problems through discovery. However, over time, there's a natural shift from discovery to delivery, and teams forget the importance of continued exploration. The title "Never Stop Experimenting" serves as an anchor for teams to remember the value of maintaining their experimental approach even when delivery pressures mount. Born from a Decade of Practice "All the techniques that I describe in the book were born during 10 years of practice." The book isn't theoretical - it's grounded in real-world application. Stavros shares how every technique and framework in "Never Stop Experimenting" emerged from his extensive hands-on experience working with teams over a decade. This practical foundation ensures that readers get battle-tested approaches rather than untested concepts. Software Development as Incremental Experiments "Experimentation requires a creative process." Stavros addresses a common challenge: while teams understand the benefits of experimentation and want to experiment, they often face management resistance that ultimately demotivates the team. He emphasizes that viewing software development as a series of incremental experiments isn't just beneficial - it's absolutely necessary for teams to remain innovative and responsive to changing needs. The Fatware Matrix: Putting Products on a Diet "The challenge: how do you convince the business that you need to spend some time removing features?" One of the book's standout concepts is "The Fatware Matrix," which helps Product Managers recognize when their product is becoming bloated. Stavros introduces a practical tool combining the Kano framework with maintenance cost analysis to illustrate the true cost and impact of maintaining old features. This approach helped one team successfully remove features from their software, with stakeholders later commenting, "Now this is more transparent for us." The key is managing feature creep and software bloat before they become overwhelming. The NSE Ratio: Optimizing Experimentation Rhythm "It's when we try something new that we learn what works. We need to change something on a regular basis." The NSE (Never Stop Experimenting) Ratio measures how long teams wait before introducing new approaches or experimenting with their processes. Stavros explains how teams should define their NSE ratio as part of their team agreements, establishing a regular cadence for trying new things. This systematic approach ensures that learning and adaptation become embedded in the team's rhythm rather than happening sporadically. Building a Safe-to-Fail Culture "Speak of your own failures. When we show our failures as leaders, we show the team that they can run their own experiments." Creating a truly safe-to-fail environment requires leaders to model vulnerability and transparency about their own mistakes. Stavros emphasizes that leaders must give the example by sharing their failures openly, which gives permission for the rest of the organization to take risks and learn from their own experiments. This leadership modeling is crucial for establishing psychological safety around experimentation. About Stavros Stavru Stavros is a Ph.D. in Organizational Transformations and a leading voice in Agile coaching, leadership, and soft skills. Founder of EdTech ventures AhaPlay and The Caringers, he has delivered over 800 trainings and authored Never Stop Experimenting, a powerful toolkit for continuous improvement across teams and organizations. You can connect with Stavros Stavru on LinkedIn, and check his book site at Neverstopexperimenting.com.

21 Juni 31min

The Product Owner Mindset in Construction | Luca Cotta Ramusino

The Product Owner Mindset in Construction | Luca Cotta Ramusino

Agile in Construction: Why Construction Teams Need Product Owner Thinking with Luca Cotta Ramusino Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. The Great Product Owner: The Customer Value Detective Luca discovered that applying the Product Owner role in construction requires thinking like a customer and understanding that "it's the customer that defines what value is." The great Product Owner in construction acts as a customer value detective, constantly asking "which task out of these is going to move the yardstick?" They ensure that work always serves a customer—if you can't identify your customer, you should stop and find one. This mindset transforms how construction teams approach their daily huddles and project planning, viewing everything through the lens of customer value rather than just task completion. The Bad Product Owner: The Waste Accumulator The bad Product Owner in construction fails to eliminate waste from processes, allowing non-value-adding activities to persist simply because "that's how we've always done it." They struggle to have candid conversations with customers and fail to tease out real requirements. Instead of transforming language into customer reality, they ask customers directly "what they want" without understanding that customers are better at identifying what they don't want than articulating what they need. This approach leads to projects that complete tasks without delivering real value. In this segment, refer to The Last Planner Method. Self-reflection Question: Can you clearly identify the customer for every piece of work your team performs, and how do you ensure that work truly moves the project toward completion? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] 🔥In the ruthless world of fintech, success isn’t just about innovation—it’s about coaching!🔥 Angela thought she was just there to coach a team. But now, she’s caught in the middle of a corporate espionage drama that could make or break the future of digital banking. Can she help the team regain their mojo and outwit their rivals, or will the competition crush their ambitions? As alliances shift and the pressure builds, one thing becomes clear: this isn’t just about the product—it’s about the people. 🚨 Will Angela’s coaching be enough? Find out in Shift: From Product to People—the gripping story of high-stakes innovation and corporate intrigue. Buy Now on Amazon [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] About Luca Cotta Ramusino  Luca is a passionate Lean advocate with roots in the construction industry, now guiding teams through agile transformation. He thrives on exploring uncharted territory, then helping clients navigate it with confidence. Ask him how Lean and agile methods can unlock your team's potential in today's fast-paced, ever-evolving work environment. You can link with Luca Cotta Ramusino on LinkedIn.

20 Juni 17min

Managing The Network of Promises in Lean Construction | Luca Cotta Ramusino

Managing The Network of Promises in Lean Construction | Luca Cotta Ramusino

Agile in Construction: Managing The Network of Promises in Lean Construction, with Luca Cotta Ramusino Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Luca defines success in Lean construction through two critical metrics from the Last Planner Method: PPC (Percentage of Plan Complete) and RNC (Reasons for Not Completing). Success means creating reliable promises in what he describes as construction's "network of promises." The Last Planner Method removes layers of management by having those closest to the work do the planning themselves. PPC measures how reliable your promises are—similar to Scrum's definition of "done"—while RNC identifies where problems concentrate, typically in 2-3 areas. Both the work provider and receiver must agree on what "complete" means for these metrics to be meaningful. Featured Retrospective Format for the Week: Reflect and Disinfect Luca developed this daily retrospective practice where people share what was interesting about their work day without formal meetings. Inspired by both Scrum retrospectives and Toyota's focus on reflection and introspection, this 15-minute format answers three questions: what should we continue doing, what should we stop doing, and what should we start doing? The practice emphasizes that teams need moments to stop and think back in order to improve how they work. The informal nature makes it accessible to construction crews who might resist traditional meeting formats. Self-reflection Question: How reliable are the promises your team makes, and what patterns do you see in the reasons they're not kept? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] 🔥In the ruthless world of fintech, success isn’t just about innovation—it’s about coaching!🔥 Angela thought she was just there to coach a team. But now, she’s caught in the middle of a corporate espionage drama that could make or break the future of digital banking. Can she help the team regain their mojo and outwit their rivals, or will the competition crush their ambitions? As alliances shift and the pressure builds, one thing becomes clear: this isn’t just about the product—it’s about the people. 🚨 Will Angela’s coaching be enough? Find out in Shift: From Product to People—the gripping story of high-stakes innovation and corporate intrigue. Buy Now on Amazon [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] About Luca Cotta Ramusino  Luca is a passionate Lean advocate with roots in the construction industry, now guiding teams through agile transformation. He thrives on exploring uncharted territory, then helping clients navigate it with confidence. Ask him how Lean and agile methods can unlock your team's potential in today's fast-paced, ever-evolving work environment. You can link with Luca Cotta Ramusino on LinkedIn.

19 Juni 18min

The Parade of Trades—Teaching Flow in Construction | Luca Cotta Ramusino

The Parade of Trades—Teaching Flow in Construction | Luca Cotta Ramusino

Agile in Construction: The Parade of Trades—Teaching Flow in Construction, With Luca Cotta Ramusino Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Luca learned the hard way that you can't just parachute consultants into construction sites and expect Lean methods to stick. His change strategy focuses on getting buy-in from crews by showing them "what's in it for them." He starts with exercises that provide insight into how Lean ideas apply to their specific jobs, like the "Parade of Trades" simulation that demonstrates how one crew moving at twice the speed still gets stuck behind slower crews ahead. This reveals that predictability of progress matters more than speed of progress. Once teams become familiar with these concepts, Luca transitions from directive teaching to facilitating meetings and conversations, moving into the background to help teams become more sustainable in their Lean practices. In this segment, Luca refers to the movie Karate Kid from 1984, and to Theory of Constraints. Self-reflection Question: How do you ensure that change initiatives show clear value to the people who must actually implement them? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] 🔥In the ruthless world of fintech, success isn’t just about innovation—it’s about coaching!🔥 Angela thought she was just there to coach a team. But now, she’s caught in the middle of a corporate espionage drama that could make or break the future of digital banking. Can she help the team regain their mojo and outwit their rivals, or will the competition crush their ambitions? As alliances shift and the pressure builds, one thing becomes clear: this isn’t just about the product—it’s about the people. 🚨 Will Angela’s coaching be enough? Find out in Shift: From Product to People—the gripping story of high-stakes innovation and corporate intrigue. Buy Now on Amazon [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends] About Luca Cotta Ramusino  Luca is a passionate Lean advocate with roots in the construction industry, now guiding teams through agile transformation. He thrives on exploring uncharted territory, then helping clients navigate it with confidence. Ask him how Lean and agile methods can unlock your team's potential in today's fast-paced, ever-evolving work environment. You can link with Luca Cotta Ramusino on LinkedIn.

18 Juni 13min

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